For Your Consideration... On Debate

I think we could spend another 10 or 20 post pages discussing who is right and who is wrong, and we will get nowhere, but if I am not mistaken that was not the intent of the original post. If anything, it feels to me as the point of the original post was proven: debate is upheld as a maxim, sometimes at the expense of empathy.

So how about instead of debating whether or not someone has a right to feel unsafe, we simply show support?

Because comfort is not the goal. Growth is.

Growth does not come from inside a comfort zone. It comes from having to face ourselves, what scares us and challenges. Empathy is not the same as making things easy for someone or taking on another persons beliefs or experiences as your own.


Edit - this does not mean i do not believe that someone has the right to be safe. I dont believe that anyone should be persecuted for their religion, gender, political affiliation etc.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

J. K. Barger wrote: This thread is a prime example of why I don't visit the forums often.

Instead of complaining about it, improve it.

Suggestions flow easily here, implementation usually comes slow however.

Things can't be ideal for everyone, and this realization is slow for some to come to.

Brenna. I might be making an assumption, but it seems that you imply comfort and growth are mutually exclusive.

It is possible that I did not properly express my view. When I made a call for understanding, I did not imply we should all just respond "there there" to the original post and then hold hands and sing Cumbaya.

But, I think empathy is more important for communication than being able to recite "facts" and come up with clever rebuttals. Oftentimes, at least in my experience, creating that rapport goes miles towards really opening everyone up to more profound conversation. I'd like to add this is a two way street. Both poster and responder should aim for better communication.

Every person has there own style, and that's fine. But we should at least apply some discernment to be able to tell when and how to intervene. Personally, I am fortunate to count with a wide network of friends and family to pat me on the back whenever I need that, so when I come here I appreciate a good debate, and am fond of someone kicking me in the ass to knock some sense into me.

But not everyone is the same. And though this is a discussion forum, it is also a temple, so I can understand why someone might come here looking for reassurance.

For the most part I do not disagree with anything youve said Manu.

and yes, we have to stretch beyond what we know, beyond what is familiar and comfortable in order to develop and grow.

*this is not about whats been discussed but a concept*

Do you think it would be right, or perhaps a kindness to offer someone reassurance and comfort rather than truth?

Brenna wrote: *this is not about whats been discussed but a concept*

Do you think it would be right to offer someone reassurance and comfort rather than truth?

In your hypotetical case, yes, I prefer truth to comfort if those are the only two choices. But you don't have to lie to offer comfort. The message should always be the same (truth). The way you get the message across is what can sometimes be harsh and sometimes be tender, adjusted to meet the desired outcome.

Manu wrote:

Brenna wrote: *this is not about whats been discussed but a concept*

Do you think it would be right to offer someone reassurance and comfort rather than truth?

In your hypotetical case, yes, I prefer truth to comfort if those are the only two choices. But you don't have to lie to offer comfort. The message should always be the same (truth). The way you get the message across is what can sometimes be harsh and sometimes be tender, adjusted to meet the desired outcome.

Yes, beautifully said Manu.

What if you are dealing with someone who seeks to deny or hide from the truth of a situation or experience because it is uncomfortable or painful to deal with? What is the kind or right thing to do there?

Brenna wrote: What if you are dealing with someone who seeks to deny or hide from the truth of a situation or experience because it is uncomfortable or painful to deal with? What is the kind or right thing to do there?

Truth is always the way to go.

Denial usually comes from a place of fear and pain, and the way in which this fear manifests can include defensiveness and even violence. But you simply cannot hold up a mirror to someone who is defensive: the image they see is warped, and they assume you are about to shatter that mirror on their head (metaphorically).

Instead, you ease them into it. Rapport first. If you focus first on understanding someone's point of view, then holding up that mirror is seen as a natural extension of the conversation, and not as an attack.

You can feel however you need to feel. Hell, you can even use that feeling to help drive home a well-thought-out point. But the moment those feelings overtake logic, you've stopped debating and started arguing from an emotional place. And even if you win that way, you lose.

What if Manu, the person takes any deviation from their perspective as an attack? Even if it's well meaning? What do you do then?

steamboat28 wrote: You can feel however you need to feel. Hell, you can even use that feeling to help drive home a well-thought-out point. But the moment those feelings overtake logic, you've stopped debating and started arguing from an emotional place. And even if you win that way, you lose.

Bingo

Which is also why the use of facts in any discussion that is emotional, are irrelevant.

Brenna wrote: What if Manu, the person takes any deviation from their perspective as an attack? Even if it's well meaning? What do you do then?

Well in that case you are screwed

Manu wrote:

Brenna wrote: What if Manu, the person takes any deviation from their perspective as an attack? Even if it's well meaning? What do you do then?

Well in that case you are screwed

lol. Yes you are

Regardless of which side of the debate you're on, or the evidence and facts either way, if someone has made up their mind to believe something... you cannot change that. Not only because it's a challenge to their comfort zone (or world view) doubly so if there is an emotional component.

But also because of psychology. The more to try to challenge what they perceive as truth, the harder they cling to their beliefs. Because it is less frightening to stay with what we understand, than it is to accept there is another view.

When people's emotions are in play, the truth is irrelevant to them.

Brenna wrote: The more to try to challenge what they perceive as truth, the harder they cling to their beliefs. Because it is less frightening to stay with what we understand, than it is to accept there is another view.

When people's emotions are in play, the truth is irrelevant to them.

See how you made me feel listened to and eased me into making your point? :laugh:

We need more of that.

All I did was lead you down a trail of logic and objectivity. We need more of THAT!

Brenna wrote: All I did was lead you down a trail of logic and objectivity. We need more of THAT!

Agreed

Manu wrote: So how about instead of debating whether or not someone has a right to feel unsafe, we simply show support?

PREFACE: Brenna already did a fantastic job responding to this, i feel that what i have to say is complementary to that exchange and can be of benefit, generally

i dont question anyones right to feel unsafe

feelings arent really choices and if such a thing as rights exist at all then we all have all the rights in the world to feel however we feel

i do however challenge the utility of feeling unsafe every time the wind blows, and i absolutely deny that because someone feels unsafe that everyone else is obligated to change their views and behavior in order to alleviate that anxiety

personally, i understand "support" more from an engineering point of view than an emotional one

the way that you used the word was something like "lets avoid stress"

but an engineer or an architect understands "support" as the ability to withstand stress, or to SUPPORT heavy loads, and from that perspective we are much more supportive of each other if our interactions can result in being better equipped to handle the stresses of life

"support" means helping people to be functional and effective even if they feel unsafe: its shifting the emphasis into developing personal competence rather than demanding external assurance or complicity

conceptualizing every event in the most radical and adversarial terms possible is one of the many ways that people end up having nervous breakdowns and/or jumping out of windows

or waltzing into public places with explosives strapped to their asses

if youre at a party with your friends and you feel good and youre getting a lot of attention and making people laugh, and then you go home and look in a mirror and theres a giant booger right under your eyeball

were your friends being supportive by not telling you?

imo, youre not being supportive of someone by keeping quiet while they crank up the speed on an inevitable train wreck, youre actually being complicit in the crash

of course youre not obligated to hound them or force them to take you seriously, but imo youre obligated to voice your concerns

theres also the issue of being a voice for a minority community

if someone wants to be a leader, "where are you leading your people to?" is a pretty important question

i dont think its better to lead people into being afraid and angry, or into a kind of celebration of those feelings

i dont think it is supportive to withhold the kind of feedback that could potentially help someone to be a more effective leader, if their very life situation is such that they kind of have to be active in social and civil movements

so if you want to be supportive of someone, id say dont push too hard too often, but damn, PUSH: give some honest feedback from time to time

OB1Shinobi wrote: ...

if youre at a party with your friends and you feel good and youre getting a lot of attention and making people laugh, and then you go home and look in a mirror and theres a giant booger right under your eyeball

were your friends being supportive by not telling you?

...

imo, youre not being supportive of someone by keeping quiet while they crank up the speed on an inevitable train wreck, youre actually being complicit in the crash

of course youre not obligated to hound them or force them to take you seriously, but imo youre obligated to voice your concerns

...

This. Exactly this. It's what I've been trying to say over the past few months with some of my posts, but these words are much more effective at painting the picture. Thank you. You get it.