For Your Consideration... On Debate

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06 Oct 2016 23:51 #260016 by Avalon

I think we could spend another 10 or 20 post pages discussing who is right and who is wrong, and we will get nowhere, but if I am not mistaken that was not the intent of the original post. If anything, it feels to me as the point of the original post was proven: debate is upheld as a maxim, sometimes at the expense of empathy.

So how about instead of debating whether or not someone has a right to feel unsafe, we simply show support?


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06 Oct 2016 23:56 - 07 Oct 2016 00:15 #260017 by Brenna
Because comfort is not the goal. Growth is.

Growth does not come from inside a comfort zone. It comes from having to face ourselves, what scares us and challenges. Empathy is not the same as making things easy for someone or taking on another persons beliefs or experiences as your own.


Edit - this does not mean i do not believe that someone has the right to be safe. I dont believe that anyone should be persecuted for their religion, gender, political affiliation etc.



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Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.

With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Last edit: 07 Oct 2016 00:15 by Brenna.
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07 Oct 2016 00:28 #260020 by Kohadre

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

J. K. Barger wrote: This thread is a prime example of why I don't visit the forums often.


Instead of complaining about it, improve it.


Suggestions flow easily here, implementation usually comes slow however.

Things can't be ideal for everyone, and this realization is slow for some to come to.

Remember the doctrine; embody the code.
Live the creed; embrace the 16 teachings.
Honor your vows.

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07 Oct 2016 00:31 #260021 by Manu
Brenna. I might be making an assumption, but it seems that you imply comfort and growth are mutually exclusive.

It is possible that I did not properly express my view. When I made a call for understanding, I did not imply we should all just respond "there there" to the original post and then hold hands and sing Cumbaya.

But, I think empathy is more important for communication than being able to recite "facts" and come up with clever rebuttals. Oftentimes, at least in my experience, creating that rapport goes miles towards really opening everyone up to more profound conversation. I'd like to add this is a two way street. Both poster and responder should aim for better communication.

Every person has there own style, and that's fine. But we should at least apply some discernment to be able to tell when and how to intervene. Personally, I am fortunate to count with a wide network of friends and family to pat me on the back whenever I need that, so when I come here I appreciate a good debate, and am fond of someone kicking me in the ass to knock some sense into me.

But not everyone is the same. And though this is a discussion forum, it is also a temple, so I can understand why someone might come here looking for reassurance.

Do. Or do not. There is no try.
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07 Oct 2016 00:41 - 07 Oct 2016 00:50 #260023 by Brenna
For the most part I do not disagree with anything youve said Manu.

and yes, we have to stretch beyond what we know, beyond what is familiar and comfortable in order to develop and grow.

*this is not about whats been discussed but a concept*

Do you think it would be right, or perhaps a kindness to offer someone reassurance and comfort rather than truth?



Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet

Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.

With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Last edit: 07 Oct 2016 00:50 by Brenna.

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07 Oct 2016 00:51 #260024 by Manu

Brenna wrote: *this is not about whats been discussed but a concept*

Do you think it would be right to offer someone reassurance and comfort rather than truth?


In your hypotetical case, yes, I prefer truth to comfort if those are the only two choices. But you don't have to lie to offer comfort. The message should always be the same (truth). The way you get the message across is what can sometimes be harsh and sometimes be tender, adjusted to meet the desired outcome.

Do. Or do not. There is no try.
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07 Oct 2016 00:53 #260025 by Brenna

Manu wrote:

Brenna wrote: *this is not about whats been discussed but a concept*

Do you think it would be right to offer someone reassurance and comfort rather than truth?


In your hypotetical case, yes, I prefer truth to comfort if those are the only two choices. But you don't have to lie to offer comfort. The message should always be the same (truth). The way you get the message across is what can sometimes be harsh and sometimes be tender, adjusted to meet the desired outcome.


Yes, beautifully said Manu.

What if you are dealing with someone who seeks to deny or hide from the truth of a situation or experience because it is uncomfortable or painful to deal with? What is the kind or right thing to do there?



Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet

Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.

With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
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07 Oct 2016 01:02 #260026 by Manu

Brenna wrote: What if you are dealing with someone who seeks to deny or hide from the truth of a situation or experience because it is uncomfortable or painful to deal with? What is the kind or right thing to do there?


Truth is always the way to go.

Denial usually comes from a place of fear and pain, and the way in which this fear manifests can include defensiveness and even violence. But you simply cannot hold up a mirror to someone who is defensive: the image they see is warped, and they assume you are about to shatter that mirror on their head (metaphorically).

Instead, you ease them into it. Rapport first. If you focus first on understanding someone's point of view, then holding up that mirror is seen as a natural extension of the conversation, and not as an attack.

Do. Or do not. There is no try.
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07 Oct 2016 01:05 #260027 by steamboat28
You can feel however you need to feel. Hell, you can even use that feeling to help drive home a well-thought-out point. But the moment those feelings overtake logic, you've stopped debating and started arguing from an emotional place. And even if you win that way, you lose.
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07 Oct 2016 01:13 #260028 by Brenna
What if Manu, the person takes any deviation from their perspective as an attack? Even if it's well meaning? What do you do then?



Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet

Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.

With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me

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