For Your Consideration... On Debate

I think people's opinions become an issue when those people have power over you. For example, there used to be a prevalent belief that African Americans were a fraction of a person (for the purposes of electing persons and writing legislation, and for the benefit of those who had ownership of African Americans who were enslaved.) and there was also a prevailing belief that women were to occupy only certain areas of society and were meant to be subject to men. There was at one point a very recent belief that individuals with disabilities ought to be locked away, and there is still some issue with getting our voices heard and our needs meant, by which I mean that there is a difficulty with freely navigating in society).

If I were to come to a place like the Temple and hear that African Americans were (for example) animals or should have remained slaves or that women need to occupy a certain place in society and need not apply to others or that individuals with disabilities are a drain on the system (which is something I hear a lot , not here, but other places) I don't think I would continue to engage with the people who held those views. If they were in a position of power that would directly affect my ability to engage here, I have the right to exit and what people think about my exit is none of my business. I would be more concerned about feeling welcomed, heard, and treated fairly.

I don't know what its like to be a trans individual and to feel unsafe handling a very natural process. One thing that I do know is that the progress is slow but it is moving. Not much of a consolation when you are dealing with the fear right now, but that is all that I can offer. I can also say that the best way to ensure that the policies, legislation and people that you need are voted in is to vote. I would also say don't be afraid to share what you are feeling. There are very few people on the extreme ends of arguments. Most people are in the middle (which would represent something like "I don't know/I dont have any feelings one way or the other/This does not affect me). These are the people you are trying to reach. The only way that you can reach them is by tellig your story. They need to know you.

In recent memory, I have only had to do this once at the temple: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/108740-who-s-responsibility?start=30#169996
I was quite angry and afraid and irritated, but my words were calm and measured. It made some step back and re-evaluate what they were saying. I don't know if this has been helpful, but I am trying my best

MadHatter wrote: Being denied care for any serious medical situation is illegal and I do not think most hospitals would do it. Misdiagnosis and bad scripts are a risk for anyone can you please expand on how your risk is greater? A psych eval and involuntary holding are not only rare but highly illegal unless you are a proven danger to yourself. I mean such an event would be exceeding rare no?And not to mention highly illegal.

It might illegal if there were someone to report those kinds of things to. You seem to be operating under the assumption that trans people are equal to their cisgender peers in the eyes of the healthcare or law enforcement system, they're not at least not in large parts of the country. Even in progressive hotbeds like my home here in Chicago, there's still no guarantee that I'm safe here because the ignorance is so pervasive (keep in mind that forced psychiatric evaluations and being detained in psych wards is a common way trans woman have been kept away from society "for the safety of average, mild mannered citizens"). Police will arrest and detain trans women if they dress a certain way for "attempting to solicit sexual favors in exchange for money" even though what they really wanted to do was get a burger and fries.

Misdiagnosis is a possibility for everyone, but you're ignoring why I could be misdiagnosed and that has to do with me being trans. The probability of me being misdiagnosed skyrockets while visiting a doctor or in the hospital because I am transgender.

Jamie are you saying that as a trans individual you might be labeled with a mental health disorder? That is not without precident. I believe that Transgender (I forget what term was used) was a part of the DSM III and only recently removed (DSMIV-TR) but my facts may be wrong. There is a very real possibility that individuals are still working under that paradigm.

If not, what are you referring to? If it is too personal, you don't have to answer.

As for things being illegal, there is still very prevalent racial discrimination in employment. Studies have shown this. If proof is needed, I can link articles and other resources. Just because something is "illegal" doesn't mean its not practiced, sometimes unconsciously

And there are also many states enacting or trying to enact "religious freedom" laws where a concern is that a doctor could refuse medical care, etc. because of his own personal opinions. That is a very real concern for many in various minority communities.

MadHatter wrote: Being denied care for any serious medical situation is illegal and I do not think most hospitals would do it. Misdiagnosis and bad scripts are a risk for anyone can you please expand on how your risk is greater? A psych eval and involuntary holding are not only rare but highly illegal unless you are a proven danger to yourself. I mean such an event would be exceeding rare no?And not to mention highly illegal.

As a person who has been committed for psychiatric care while identifying as a different gender than my biological sex, I can confirm that I was treated like garbage (more so than many of the other patients) and my medical care suffered tangibly because of that treatment.

"Highly illegal" is a stretch for describing the treatment I got. "Highly immoral" would fit. But because transgender people are not protected under many equal opportunity laws, it's not illegal. Such was my experience in the southern United States. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

And that's not even getting started on how many doctors are ignorant about how to medically treat transgender people. So they do it wrong in a way that is not "illegal" per se. And filing malpractice suits isn't as simple as saying, "You did me wrong, Doc."

Jamie Stick wrote: This Temple isn't a haven for free thinking and critical thought. It's just an echo chamber for whoever's opinion is most popular and can drown out the opposition.

Did someone say "Trump campaign in a swing state"? hehe xD

Seriously though, we are still way too far off the mark when it comes to really empathizing with each other in a way that would actually make positive change happen. We need to learn to stop offering our blessed opinions on everything and actually listen.

Jamie Stick wrote: This Temple isn't a haven for free thinking and critical thought. It's just an echo chamber for whoever's opinion is most popular and can drown out the opposition.

I think that is very much about perspective. As I tried to explain to someone recently, just because something is your opinion, does not make it fact. And even things we consider facts can be debatable.

This comment has absolutely nothing to do with this particular topic or my stance on it, but a reminder that we cannot dismiss the opinions of others as lacking in sincerity, intelligence or critical thought just because they are contrary to what we hold true.

socially expectable always seems to "trump" accurate or science. People believe what they want to believe no matter what. No matter how much science proves stuff - people still do it: like drinking coffee and eating high fructose corn syrup.

baru wrote: socially expectable always seems to "trump" accurate or science. People believe what they want to believe no matter what. No matter how much science proves stuff - people still do it: like drinking coffee and eating high fructose corn syrup.

As a caffine junkie I can tell you there are many health benefits to black coffee which is what I drink.
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/coffee-new-health-food#1

So there is no science that says coffee is flat out bad.

This thread is a prime example of why I don't visit the forums often. :sick: :sick: :sick: