For Your Consideration... On Debate

steamboat28 wrote: You can feel however you need to feel. Hell, you can even use that feeling to help drive home a well-thought-out point. But the moment those feelings overtake logic, you've stopped debating and started arguing from an emotional place. And even if you win that way, you lose.

Bingo

Which is also why the use of facts in any discussion that is emotional, are irrelevant.

Brenna wrote: What if Manu, the person takes any deviation from their perspective as an attack? Even if it's well meaning? What do you do then?

Well in that case you are screwed

Manu wrote:

Brenna wrote: What if Manu, the person takes any deviation from their perspective as an attack? Even if it's well meaning? What do you do then?

Well in that case you are screwed

lol. Yes you are

Regardless of which side of the debate you're on, or the evidence and facts either way, if someone has made up their mind to believe something... you cannot change that. Not only because it's a challenge to their comfort zone (or world view) doubly so if there is an emotional component.

But also because of psychology. The more to try to challenge what they perceive as truth, the harder they cling to their beliefs. Because it is less frightening to stay with what we understand, than it is to accept there is another view.

When people's emotions are in play, the truth is irrelevant to them.

Brenna wrote: The more to try to challenge what they perceive as truth, the harder they cling to their beliefs. Because it is less frightening to stay with what we understand, than it is to accept there is another view.

When people's emotions are in play, the truth is irrelevant to them.

See how you made me feel listened to and eased me into making your point? :laugh:

We need more of that.

All I did was lead you down a trail of logic and objectivity. We need more of THAT!

Brenna wrote: All I did was lead you down a trail of logic and objectivity. We need more of THAT!

Agreed

Manu wrote: So how about instead of debating whether or not someone has a right to feel unsafe, we simply show support?

PREFACE: Brenna already did a fantastic job responding to this, i feel that what i have to say is complementary to that exchange and can be of benefit, generally

i dont question anyones right to feel unsafe

feelings arent really choices and if such a thing as rights exist at all then we all have all the rights in the world to feel however we feel

i do however challenge the utility of feeling unsafe every time the wind blows, and i absolutely deny that because someone feels unsafe that everyone else is obligated to change their views and behavior in order to alleviate that anxiety

personally, i understand "support" more from an engineering point of view than an emotional one

the way that you used the word was something like "lets avoid stress"

but an engineer or an architect understands "support" as the ability to withstand stress, or to SUPPORT heavy loads, and from that perspective we are much more supportive of each other if our interactions can result in being better equipped to handle the stresses of life

"support" means helping people to be functional and effective even if they feel unsafe: its shifting the emphasis into developing personal competence rather than demanding external assurance or complicity

conceptualizing every event in the most radical and adversarial terms possible is one of the many ways that people end up having nervous breakdowns and/or jumping out of windows

or waltzing into public places with explosives strapped to their asses

if youre at a party with your friends and you feel good and youre getting a lot of attention and making people laugh, and then you go home and look in a mirror and theres a giant booger right under your eyeball

were your friends being supportive by not telling you?

imo, youre not being supportive of someone by keeping quiet while they crank up the speed on an inevitable train wreck, youre actually being complicit in the crash

of course youre not obligated to hound them or force them to take you seriously, but imo youre obligated to voice your concerns

theres also the issue of being a voice for a minority community

if someone wants to be a leader, "where are you leading your people to?" is a pretty important question

i dont think its better to lead people into being afraid and angry, or into a kind of celebration of those feelings

i dont think it is supportive to withhold the kind of feedback that could potentially help someone to be a more effective leader, if their very life situation is such that they kind of have to be active in social and civil movements

so if you want to be supportive of someone, id say dont push too hard too often, but damn, PUSH: give some honest feedback from time to time

OB1Shinobi wrote: ...

if youre at a party with your friends and you feel good and youre getting a lot of attention and making people laugh, and then you go home and look in a mirror and theres a giant booger right under your eyeball

were your friends being supportive by not telling you?

...

imo, youre not being supportive of someone by keeping quiet while they crank up the speed on an inevitable train wreck, youre actually being complicit in the crash

of course youre not obligated to hound them or force them to take you seriously, but imo youre obligated to voice your concerns

...

This. Exactly this. It's what I've been trying to say over the past few months with some of my posts, but these words are much more effective at painting the picture. Thank you. You get it.