Cultural Sensitivity/Appropriation and Anger

Manu wrote: Just my two cents here, but if someone were to set up a clandestine office and practice medicine without being a doctor, no one would call that "culture appropriation", it would simply be fraud, where you claim to be someone you are not and to be qualified for something you aren't.

Yes, that's because there are legal requirements to be a licensed practitioner in medicine. And doctoring isn't a cultural practice. The methods to address that problem are already well established so "medicinal appropriation" wouldn't be a useful framework for describing it. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Notably, you seem to be arguing that because the label "fraud" would apply then no other label does. But somebody illegally practicing medicine is both a fraud and a criminal (and a liar, a sharlatan, an impersonator, etc). So somebody misrepresenting their relationship to a cultural element is both a fraud and a cultural appropriator. Those two terms can coexist.

Goken wrote: An interesting exercise. I'm not going to lie, I think there is a part of me that would be a little upset. But, I also think that I would then just ignore it and move on. It's not that dissimilar to what people think of Jedi now. To most of the world we are already a bunch of cosplaying, robe wearing, telekinesis practicing, mouth breathers who live in our mothers' basements. I live with it well enough now and I will continue to live with it. I have never felt a need to make the outside world understand or take us seriously. I take it seriously and know the difference and that's good enough for me.

Now, imagine that because of a combination of being used to it, Jediism being new, and Jedi "belonging" as much to pop culture as to Jedi, that Jedi are less attached to their cultural sacred cows than nearly any other group. Magnify that "little upset" to a level that fits a thousand-year-old tradition being stolen by white college girls in their yoga pants for fashion or Halloween costumes. Your most sacred dance has become a thing that drunken people foul up on dance floors. The most important facet of your religion for the last 17 centuries is sold as a kit in a local bookstore.

THAT is cultural appropriation.

Parnerium wrote:

Manu wrote: Just my two cents here, but if someone were to set up a clandestine office and practice medicine without being a doctor, no one would call that "culture appropriation", it would simply be fraud, where you claim to be someone you are not and to be qualified for something you aren't.

Yes, that's because there are legal requirements to be a licensed practitioner in medicine. And doctoring isn't a cultural practice. The methods to address that problem are already well established so "medicinal appropriation" wouldn't be a useful framework for describing it. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Notably, you seem to be arguing that because the label "fraud" would apply then no other label does. But somebody illegally practicing medicine is both a fraud and a criminal (and a liar, a sharlatan, an impersonator, etc). So somebody misrepresenting their relationship to a cultural element is both a fraud and a cultural appropriator. Those two terms can coexist.

And someone illegally practicing medicine from a specific culture (like TCM) without the proper insider knowledge or without the proper respect being given, is a fraud, a criminal, AND an appropriator.
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Goken wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

1. Culture is not race.

That is 100% correct. Yet somehow I keep getting told I can't do certain things because I'm white.

That's bullsh*t. People who say those things are stupid. In truth, the problem isn't that you're white, it's that you haven't shown the proper desire to adequately respect the culture those things come from.

steamboat28 wrote:

Parnerium wrote:

Manu wrote: Just my two cents here, but if someone were to set up a clandestine office and practice medicine without being a doctor, no one would call that "culture appropriation", it would simply be fraud, where you claim to be someone you are not and to be qualified for something you aren't.

Yes, that's because there are legal requirements to be a licensed practitioner in medicine. And doctoring isn't a cultural practice. The methods to address that problem are already well established so "medicinal appropriation" wouldn't be a useful framework for describing it. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Notably, you seem to be arguing that because the label "fraud" would apply then no other label does. But somebody illegally practicing medicine is both a fraud and a criminal (and a liar, a sharlatan, an impersonator, etc). So somebody misrepresenting their relationship to a cultural element is both a fraud and a cultural appropriator. Those two terms can coexist.

And someone illegally practicing medicine from a specific culture (like TCM) without the proper insider knowledge or without the proper respect being given, is a fraud, a criminal, AND an appropriator.
[hr]

Goken wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

1. Culture is not race.

That is 100% correct. Yet somehow I keep getting told I can't do certain things because I'm white.

That's bullsh*t. People who say those things are stupid. In truth, the problem isn't that you're white, it's that you haven't shown the proper desire to adequately respect the culture those things come from.

And how do I prove that I have adequately respected the culture? Many people read about something, think it's cool and then represent it poorly because:

1) As most human beings, they have not taken the time to research it throughoutly.
2) They are often not "wearing" the cultural item in an attempt to represent the culture.

I think many people are easily angered for no good reason, because instead of giving the "appropriator" the benefit of doubt, they don't care to find out the intent behind it and just resort to social mob-lynching.

Manu wrote: And how do I prove that I have adequately respected the culture?

You don't have to.

what about this?

r3dleader wrote: https://youtu.be/eAEmjW9J3_o

this video is just one ginormous hodgepodge of cultural synthesis (aka appropriation) and its awesome

are natives not allowed to skateboard, box, or use hiphop beats and synthesizers? dance clubs and black lights?

of course they are

is it really necessary for someone to understand the entire cultural history of boxing or hip hop in order to participate in these experiences?

i dont think so

when people are free to follow their creative and inspirational impulses, they produce fantastic things which help to drive forward our shared human culture

but for the big fantastic things to happen, the little trivial things have to be allowed also

This situation reminds me of people getting upset over sports team names. There was some hubbub about the Redskins and a few other Native American themed teams where people said it was inappropriate. Personally I think people get a little too sensitive about this kind of stuff. In your situation it's a costume mimicking a fictional character...if people have a problem with the costume they should be more upset about the movie. There are hillbilly and redneck costumes for Halloween every year and it doesn't offend me as a "white" person.

I understand the need to be sensitive and respectful of other cultures but I think people take these sorts of things a little too seriously. It's not like the costume included blackface makeup or anything. What are people offended by? The tattoos? The muscles? You'd think implying that people of a certain culture are muscular would be a compliment. And tattoos...get over it, tattoos aren't shocking anymore and they're not taboo.

As far as what you are expected to do about it? You might ask them why they're so upset and get them to examine their feelings on the matter. You might recommend that everyone step back from the topic for a while to cool down and come back with level heads. Or you could stay out of it entirely and let the uproar die down naturally. It really depends on whether or not you feel it is worth your time and energy to step in and say something. People on the internet can become enraged about the silliest things and sometimes it's best to just let them vent.

OB1Shinobi wrote: is it really necessary for someone to understand the entire cultural history of boxing or hip hop in order to participate in these experiences?

Nope. I never said they did.

I'm a little confused about whether you (and a few other people) are talking to people who have posted in this thread or if you're talking about ideas you've seen or heard elsewhere.

If you're just talking about things you've heard other people say and arguments that haven't been made here, then I'll stop responding because then this isn't a conversation, it's just you soapboxing (which is fine, but I'd like to know if that's your plan so I don't mistake this for a conversation).

Lykeios wrote: It's not like the costume included blackface makeup or anything.

Functionally equivalent, actually.

I think that it goes back to cultural appropriation vs cultural misappropriation. It's kind of constructive vs destructive in a grossly oversimplified way that doesn't really scratch the surface.

Also, hip-hop culture isn't race based. I'm sure that there are some who think it is, but it's not. It comes from a common shared experience and outlook. That's my 2 cents on that.

Now the mascot thing, that's because it is racist. It's offensive to my culture, sure, but the insult to my race is what gets me turned up about it. My culture isn't the same as a Cree's or Lakota's or Navajo's, but my race is. We all get smashed together, so for people to stand there and say it's not that big of a deal... Would it be ok if those people wore shirts that said Washington Niggers and had on blackface on national TV and talked about it how it is their right and they are just honoring the history of African Americans? Do the Chicken Jig and sing spirituals when they rallied? Then why is ok for them to do it to us?