Cultural Sensitivity/Appropriation and Anger

For everyone else, I post in these threads on a belief that you will engage with me in good faith effort to exchange and debate the best ideas available. Your opinions, lacking any research or information to back them up, don't really cut it. You might argue simply on the basis of logic, but you have to be good at it because otherwise you just sound like a mouth-breathing neckbeard; fedora and all.

When you post in these threads repeatedly spouting your uninformed opinions it's disrespectful to me and to the time I take to articulate why I believe what I believe. You may not realize it, but I lose a lot of respect for you when you do that. It says to me that you can't be bothered to put in even half the amount of time I've spent studying this stuff. You don't have to agree with me, but I insist that you put some effort into making your arguments researched and logically consistent. More than the fact that y'all disagree with me, the most infuriating aspect of these discussions is that time and again I see the same arguments, I point out how they're flawed and the next time a related topic comes up I see the same argument again and they're just as flawed as they were before (especially on racism which I see a lot of, "I'm not racist, you're racist" which would be funny in a I'm-laughing-at-you-not-with-you kind of way if it were not the umpteenth time I've seen that argument).

EDIT: One point of clarification, I should mention that if you pop in to these threads to ask a genuine question that's also a legitimate way to participate in discussion. One thing I really hate though is when people try to bait me into something with a question, when all they want to do is set up an elaborate line of interrogation to try to trick me into contradicting myself. The other thing I hate is when people ask a question without any intention of actually receiving my answer, instead they just ask so they can state their own opinion with the appearance of having heard the other side.

Senan wrote: The appropriation of Middle Eastern culture was not the problem. Disney failed in this instance because they were not sensitive to a particular stereotype about that culture.

Senan when is it insensitive, to tell the truth? At the time in that area of the world, that was a possible punishment. Saudi Arabia has carried out such a punishment as recently as at least 2013/2014 http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.631994
So is stating that reality wrong?


As far as the rest of the debate I will say that the personal attacks could be put aside. But here are my feelings:

Who gets to decide who's culture it is and why are they the authority? I mean I grew up in the ghetto. Rap and the topics covered by it were part of my life growing up so who is anyone to say that it's " not my culture"

Should I not do my day of the dead altar each year because I am not directly Hispanic? I mean the man ( my father though some would say my step dad) who raised me is from Oaxaca Mexico and my house held such a tradition each year but is that not my culture?

Who gets to draw the line and why them? Should it be extremists like Anita Sarkisian who has said everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic and we need to point it all out?

What about if we get the ok from someone blood linked to the culture does that make it cool? Should it be in writing? Is one person from said cultures opinion more valid than another?

Do we see where this could seem to be getting a bit silly?

Bleh....this old dead horse again....

Just because one is born into a setting and raised in it does not make it their culture...their choices become their culture....

I'm german/irish/cheyenne indian...none of those are my culture...I grew up in a racist community, that isn't my culture...while others around me were learning to hate other ethnicities/races I was watching anime, reading manga, listening to rap/r&b/hip hop, being called a "race traitor", etc.....to me THAT is my culture. I chose a global culture of traditions and customs collected from around the world...

This post wasn't meant to be about cultural appropriation, rather or approach to the situation: the anger, resentment, etc.

Leah Starspectre wrote: This post wasn't meant to be about cultural appropriation, rather or approach to the situation: the anger, resentment, etc.

Stirred up a mynocks nest...lol...certain folks always jump at the opportunity to debate cultural appropriation...social justice warriors out to defend the slighted...

Some people get deeply offended about cultural aspects being used or misrepresented by other groups...rather than being understanding they get offended and go on the rampage...clinging to the past and to differences rather than moving forward and finding ways to unite...

TheDude wrote: Well Jamie, I'm not sure where you're getting your information. I apologize deeply for not researching tentacle porn to the extent of your liking. Needless to say, you've ignored the bulk of my argument. Why you think my lack of knowledge regarding tentacle porn makes my opinion about your racist comments invalid is beyond me, but perhaps you will enlighten me.

I certainly tried, but I guess I have to do it all by myself .

TheDude wrote: You make presumptions about me, the content of my character, based solely on the color of my skin. When I look at someone I make no assumptions about them based on their appearance, but apparently you have good reason to do so! Very curious. Tell me in what ways I have conformed to "white" culture if you know me so well.

I just stated that by saying, "I don't have a culture" you were conforming to a very typical white thing to say.

TheDude wrote: If you must know, yes, I come from a Jewish background. That doesn't add or subtract any validity from anything I've said. Your question regarding my race is completely irrelevant.

I can't win. First you tell me not to judge you then you get mad because I made a point of not assuming your ethnicity based on appearance.

TheDude wrote: I'm not looking for any applause. And my opinion is valid.

Valid only in the sense that you're entitled to it, but it doesn't make it right in the sense of accuracy or with anything informing aside from self-validation.

TheDude wrote: I have no obligation to analyze everything from every perspective every time I make a post. The posts would get way too long, it would be impractical. You can't honestly expect that.

You could refrain from posting on these threads. That would be infinitely better. Just read, analyze, consider, do your own research.

TheDude wrote: How about you list some of your sources, since you're so well-read?

The People's History by Howard Zinn
The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du Bois
Black Skin, White Masks by Frantz Fanon
The Malcolm X Autobiography by Alex Haley and Malcolm X
Letter from Birmingham Jail by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde
Race Matters by Dr. Cornel West
Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria: And Other Conversations About Race by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum

TheDude wrote: If you aren't prepared to adequately address the points made in discussion, you aren't ready to engage in it at all.

Frankly, I don't address all your points because I feel that disrespected by your lack of time and effort put into making an informed argument. Why should I spend my time arguing with someone who can't do me the courtesy of doing their research?

TheDude wrote: As repugnant as my ignorance may be, I find it preferable to arrogance.

I'm sorry if my demand for something more than an uninformed opinion comes across as arrogance. I don't understand why this is such a ridiculous request of me to make. Are you incapable of doing your own research? Are you incapable of reading books and searching the internet? Am I missing some crucial piece of this puzzle that would explain why asking for something more than ignorance is unreasonable?

Leah Starspectre wrote: This post wasn't meant to be about cultural appropriation, rather or approach to the situation: the anger, resentment, etc.

Funny enough, I think this thread highlights why some people react the way they do.

When you've encountered the same old ignorant cliches time and again, when people don't bother to defend their opinions with anything more than self-validation, when people continually refuse to read a book before speaking whatever fanciful fantasies exist in their heads; the result can leave you in a blood-boiling rage. This is especially true with repeat offenders: people who make a point to come back time and again to make comments out of ignorance and continually refusing to look beyond their own opinions.

That said, I feel like there's productive anger and destructive anger. I feel like I'm straddling the line (I haven't attacked anyone's character intentionally or dismissed anyone's argument simply because I don't like it). Often times I see unproductive anger, particularly among white people on the conversation of racism when someone asks a question and the response they get is explosive rage. This is not to say white people aren't allowed to be angry, but since it costs them nothing to their personal wellbeing to carefully explain and answer questions--more grace is required.

Well folks,

I've enjoyed a good many of these posts so far, there was some interesting excellent points raised, and I learned a little something.

Seems to be at an impasse now though, Everyone has a high horse from which to beat the dead horse (does the dead horse need to be on a pedestal or step or something so that it can be beaten from high horses safely? )

Unless something really new comes in, I don't think there'll be any personal paradigm shifts today



Good Game.

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: The appropriation of Middle Eastern culture was not the problem. Disney failed in this instance because they were not sensitive to a particular stereotype about that culture.

Senan when is it insensitive, to tell the truth? At the time in that area of the world, that was a possible punishment. Saudi Arabia has carried out such a punishment as recently as at least 2013/2014 http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/1.631994
So is stating that reality wrong?

If I remember correctly, it was this specific verse that pissed people off:

"Oh, I come from a land
From a faraway place
Where the caravan camels roam.
Where they cut off your ear
If they don't like your face
It's barbaric, but hey, it's home."

I don't think it is wrong to reference it, just the way it was done. This probably isn't necessary in a movie made for kids.

Cultural appropriation is harmful because, unlike cultural appreciation, it removes the item from its context--often times for profit.

I still don't understand why cultural appropriation is harmful, as in the case of Elvis or Eminem. Could you expand?

i know you didnt ask me but its a legitimate question, its the very heart of the issue really

and the only answer i can come up with is that it hurts feelings

peoples feelings have been hurt because elvis got rich playing "black people" music while actual black people didnt get rich ( or AS rich ) playing the same kind of music

if you think of culture as a relationship between the individual and his/her world and activities then music is enriching for its own sake
the success of elvis or eminem does not in any way detract from the value of music to any individuals personal life, but could actually add to it in the long run because elvis catapulted the popularity of rock n roll and this increased popularity paved the way for future artists of all races

but if you think of culture as a financial commodity with something liek copyright protection, or as being something that people physically own in the same way we own cars or furniture, then its easy to see how elvis stole chuck berry's V8 ford

i personally dont see culture in those ways because culture is psychological, and once a phenomenon (like the guitar or freestyle rap battles) imprints itself on your mind it is as much a part of your experience as anything else, regardless of its origins, and thus has become a piece of your own culture

if you find a passion for it and immerse yourself into it, it absolutely becomes your culture; youve entered into a RELATIONSHIP with it, where it becomes a vehicle for you to develop along certain lines and you become a vehicle for its further dissemination within society

you may relate to it differently than others who experienced it before you did, but that doesnt alter its impact on your own experience