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Cultural Sensitivity/Appropriation and Anger
steamboat28 wrote: Continue with your "people shouldn't be upset about things that don't upset me" rants, though.
Who me? Everything upsets me
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steamboat28 wrote: Cultural appropriation is a very serious topic. It is, however, often misdiagnosed.
serious how?
can you demonstrate a harm more significant than "i find it distasteful" or "i dont like it"?
and misdiagnosed how?
what are the criteria for proper diagnosis and who gets to define them?
if someone makes a film deliberately ridiculing a group through misrepresentation, i can agree that actual social harm is being done
but when a white guy raps or has dreadlocks i cant see any harm: in my culture we believe that people are allowed to wear what they like and to style their hair as they like, to listen to whatever music they like and even to learn how to play that music themselves if they like
as a matter of fact, we even believe that this kind of freedom is one of our greatest cultural strengths
Continue with your "people shouldn't be upset about things that don't upset me" rants, though.
there is a valid point here, but its inverse is equally valid: everyone else doesnt have to be upset by everything that upsets me (it might even be that i myself dont really have to be upset by it)
EDIT
for the record, i DO believe it is distasteful and offensive to use peoples religious symbols frivolously, and i do think it is a fair standard to expect our storytellers to be respectful of the cultures they depict
but i see this as basic standards of social and professional decency, and i dont conflate or bias them with presuppositions of "white devilry"
also, commercialized depictions of shamanism inspired me to great deal of serious investigation of cultural practices and beliefs of other peoples, which has had innumerable positive benefits in my life
and, while the ninja and samurai of my childhood may have been americanized or appropriated, my fascination for them was genuine and has continued into my adulthood
i am very glad that the ninja turtles and all the cheesy ninja and kung fu movies of the 80 existed, because all that inspired me to the martial arts, which in turn were fundamental to me becoming the person that i am
(seriously can you imagine american culture without ninja and kung fu movies??)
and my experience is not unique: the free proliferation of ideas and the open pursuit of individual interests are to all of our benefit: we gain more as a society (culture) by having this freedom than we would by suppressing it
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how about "judo" gene lebell ?
should Dat Nguyen? have focused on math instead of football?
does drinking a margarita count as cultural appropriation?
what about coffee?
what about someone who loves yoga but is not from india? are all the non-indian certified yoga instructors appropriating indian culture?
are they doing something they should be ashamed of even though they are following their passion and helping other people to adopt healthy lifestyles?
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lacking any further legitimate content, i hope you enjoy this short (and somewhat crass) "im a stupid cat" video instead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpl5mOAXNl4
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from https://www.york.cuny.edu/academics/writing-program/the-york-scholar-1/volume-6.1-fall-2009/the-social-effects-of-jazz
The Social Effects of Jazz
Zola Philipp
Abstract
This paper’s purpose is to examine the social effects of jazz music. It focuses on the exploitation of black jazz musicians by whites in the industry and looks at whether black musicians benefited at all from their innovations. Many of today’s African American musicians are faced with similar social circumstances as those of past jazz musicians and as a result, the importance of the African American culture is still being ignored. Despite the negative social conditions that blacks faced, some blacks were still able to benefit and gained respect, stardom, and recognition for being the inventors of jazz music.
Where words fail, music speaks,” says the poet Hans Christian Andersen. This message is profoundly expressed in jazz music. In the 1920s, jazz experienced a rise in popularity when the music began to spread through recordings. Some black jazz musicians believe that they were ripped off financially and that they did not get full recognition and compensation for being the inventors of jazz as African American culture. Furthermore, some people oppose the idea that jazz was invented by blacks. Jazz music as such became more of a commodity than an art and the highest achievers were white.
Music is essential to the African American experience in the United States. Faced with racism, discrimination, and segregation, blacks have always found comfort and a sense of peace in their music. Music continues to be a means by which the anger, grief, compassion and desire for change is transformed into positive energy for blacks (Dawson, 2001). Today, the social conditions facing American popular music, especially rap, are analogous to those faced by jazz music, and many musicians have similar experiences. Despite the fact that jazz music has created some positive social effects, it has created more negative ones for black jazz musicians, such as exploitation and jazz appropriation, some of which are still occurring today.
In order to understand the social effects of jazz music, there must be an understanding of how this music came into existence. I will then discuss the positive and the negative effects jazz had on black jazz musicians. Jazz developed from Afro-American music which included: Work songs, spiritual music, minstrelsy (a stage entertainment usually performed by whites with blackened faces who performed songs, dances and comedy ostensibly of black American origin), and other forms (Wheaton, 1994). Dorsey (2001) believes that black music and black musical accomplishments have been rooted in the continent of Africa. Jazz’s relationship to African music can be demonstrated in “the dominance of percussion in African American music…and bending the notes expressed in improvisation” (p. 36). The same way Africans were able to spontaneously invent a piece of music or beat, sometimes without any instruments, black jazz musicians are able to incorporate some of these features in their music. The improvisational style of the latter is very much influenced by the former, and is a unique feature of jazz music.
Furthermore, jazz is considered an integral part of African American culture. Though there has been great debate about a standard definition of jazz, Wheaton (1994) believes it “can be defined as a combination of improvisatory styles with western European form and harmony” (p. 90). In other words, despite jazz’s African roots, it also has many European features such as composition, internal structure, and harmony. Peretti (1992) too states that jazz obtained its musical identity from the African and European traditions. Jazz music emerged out of “hot music” from New Orleans at the turn of the twentieth century and some of the structures were inherited from Africa and passed down to blacks from slavery to freedom (Dorsey, 2001). Jazz categories include Dixieland, swing, bop, cool jazz, hard bop, free jazz, Third Stream, jazz-rock, and fusion (Wheaton, 1994). The first jazz-style to receive recognition as a fine art was bebop, which is mainly instrumental and was formed by serious black jazz musicians who experimented with new ideas in the late night jam sessions (Wheaton, 1994). Bebop evolved in the 1940s and was said to have been created by blacks in a way that whites could not copy (Gerard, 1998).
The history of jazz proves that black musicians are the inventors and innovators of jazz, and that has been a major accomplishment of blacks. According to Wheaton (1994), an innovator’s “job is not to entertain, but rather, to make the listener aware and to force the audience to confront often disturbing realities and hidden truths about themselves, their society and their world” (p. 143). Jazz is often referred to as “Black classical music.” Gerard (1998) cites Amiri Baraka, who first argued that jazz is an African American music in his book Blues People (1963), and also called jazz “Black music” in books he wrote later. In fact, one of the first musicians to label his music “Negro music” was Duke Ellington, who made it a priority to express the African American culture profoundly in it (Gerard, 1998). Mackey (1992) believes that blacks were cheated out of their invention of jazz music. In other words, commercial success was only obtained by whites. Blacks were basically locked out of it. Yet most white jazz musicians did not have the improvisational skills or originality that the black musicians displayed in their music. Malcolm X says that whites simply replicate what they heard in the past, whereas blacks “could spontaneously invent.” He states:
I’ve seen black musicians when they’d be jamming at a jam session with white musicians—a whole lot of difference. The white musician can jam if he’s got some sheet music in front of him…But that black musician, he picks up his horn and starts blowing some sounds that he never thought of before. He improvises, he creates. (qtd. in Gerard, 1998, p. 78)
However, there are opposing points of view when it comes to who invented jazz. Textbook writer Frank Tirro writes: “contrary to popular belief, jazz does not owe its existence to any one race” (qtd. in Gerard, 1998, p.88). Because of the western influences and American band traditions in jazz, some people believe that it does not simply belong to African Americans. In addition, in response to the statement that whites stole the music, Jim Hall says, “I’ve always felt that the music started out as black but that it’s as much mine now as anyone else’s. I haven’t stolen the music from anybody—I just bring something different to it” (qtd. in Gerard, 1998, p. 90). Hall is indeed acknowledging that blacks invented jazz, but he does not feel that whites have stolen it, even if whites imitated the various jazz styles created by blacks and became wealthy as a result.
Upward social mobility among black jazz musicians is a very significant factor, though it was not common. Opportunities were given to black musicians by the radio and recording industry and popular black bands were promoted as long as there was a demand for jazz music by white Americans (Gerard, 1998). However, Mackey (1992) believes that there was a containment of black mobility on the political level and that the social and economic progress blacks might have accumulated because of their artistic innovation was blocked by whites. Black jazz musicians were primarily from the lower class. As Means (1968) points out, despite their social background, “some of these jazzmen received recognition as serious composers and several conducted well-known symphony orchestras and were invited to give concerts in Carnegie Hall (p. 18). Benny Goodman, a white jazz bandleader, brought to stardom Teddy Wilson, Lionel Hampton and Charlie Christian, but still encountered criticism for benefiting from their talents; a few other black jazz musicians, including Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington, made a lot of money (Gerard, 1998).
Jazz music has created a sense of integration between blacks and whites in the industry. Buster Bailey, a black jazz musician said, “One thing I’m happy to see is the integration that’s happening among musicians” (qtd. in Means, 1968, p. 22). Discrimination still existed, but in the jazz community, musicians were somehow considered as equals. Whites were hired to perform in several black bands and the white trombonist Roswell Rudd was introduced to jazz audiences by Archie Shepp (Gerard, 1998). Means (1968) cites Monroe Berger who notes that jazz music created black-white contact where a black musician received full acceptance as an equal and was “(often admired as superior) without condescension” (Means, 1998, p. 17). Jazz music has not only integrated people in the United States, but also brought them together internationally. It has been influenced by third world countries such as Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and India (Wheaton, 1994). Great jazz musicians integrated international ideas into their music; for instance, Duke Ellington has an album named Far East Suite, and two of Coltrane’s albums are named Africa and India (Wheaton, 1994).
Today, jazz music is progressing in many ways. Despite its economic decline and struggle to survive because of the developed wealth of rock and pop, there have been many opportunities for the survival of jazz. Jazz began to penetrate the music programs of high schools, colleges and universities right after World War II, and in 1968, the International Association of Jazz Education was formed (Wheaton, 1994). Ron Dewey Wynn, co-founder and executive director of the Mill Street Jazz and Culture Society in Philadelphia, teaches inner city kids to appreciate the history and training in jazz music and calls jazz “African American Classical Improvisational Music” (Dawson, 2001). He contends that African American children won’t experience jazz culture as music programs decrease in schools around the country (Dawson, 2001). Jazz has also gotten much recognition in the United States and around the world through jazz festivals. Overseas festivals have been more successful than festivals in the United States; in places like Switzerland, the Netherlands and Italy, jazz festivals have all broken records for attendance (Wheaten, 1994).
Now that the positive social effects of jazz have been clarified, I will present the negative effects. The recording industry has played a major role in the commercialization of jazz music, which has led to uniformity. Jazz music would not have been widely distributed to the general public without the recording industry, and it provided a perfect opportunity for making the music more marketable. As a result, blacks were socially affected, and according to Means (1968), they had limited opportunities to showcase their originality and were forced to create music that appealed only to whites. However, white bands had a sense of sameness that was more marketable. According to Mackey (1992), swing music lacked improvisation, and the soloist’s creativity was not relied upon as much because of the commercialization of the music. Jazz became so commercialized that the industry was less dependent on black innovation, but rather produced a music that was lacking the essence of jazz—its improvisation. Baraka quotes Hsio wen Shih’s “comments regarding the anthology album The Great Swing Bands, a record Shih refers to as ‘terrifying’ due to the indistinguishability of one band from another” (qtd. in Mackey, 1992, p. 60). Swing music basically lacked creativity and distinction and as a result, swing bands sounded alike.
Black jazz musicians were less credited for their invention and innovation of jazz music. Jazz music created a sense of identity, originality, and social cohesion among black musicians, but they were seldom credited with inventing it. Kofsky (1998) believes that this refusal of whites to credit blacks is because they refused to equate anything valuable with African Americans. According to Miles Davis, this is the case because “the white man likes to win everything. White people like to see other white people win…and they can’t win when it comes to jazz…because black people created this” (qtd. in Gerard, 1998, p.16). In addition, whites became more famous than blacks because of their unwillingness to give blacks credit for their talents. Means (1968) too believes that black jazz musicians experienced a lot of resentment because they felt that they did not always receive acknowledgement for their accomplishments, while whites were granted titles such as “King of Swing” and “King of Jazz” (p.18). Again this social effect of jazz was a result of greed by whites, and it created anger, fear and resentment among black jazz musicians.
While whites in the jazz music industry got rich, black musicians did not reap equal benefits. The industry caused a great deal of exploitation and discrimination by whites against blacks. Rex Stewart says, “Where the control is, the money is. Do you see any of us running any record companies, booking agencies, radio stations, music magazines?” (qtd. in Kofsky, 1998, p. 19). In other words, the recording/distribution industry was in complete control, not black musicians. Because of this power and contempt for black art, blacks were likely to suffer and the recording industry basically determined the economic success or failure of an artist. White musicians who benefited from the talent of black musicians were labeled exploiters and for the financial gain they drew from the music, they were called thieves (Gerard, 1998, p. 14). For instance, arrangements were purchased from black musicians by Benny Goodman, a white jazz musician known as “King of Swing.” However, the majority of black musicians, despite their invention of the music, experienced very little success (Mackey, 1992). Mackey (1992) further states that “the most popular and best-paid bands were white” and with the development of radio, which was an excellent form for publicizing the music, the best paid studio jobs were predominantly secured by whites (p. 52). In other words, because of race, black jazz musicians have experienced great disadvantages throughout the history of jazz music (Means, 1968).
Furthermore, the jazz music industry contributed a great deal to the continuous victimization of blacks. Whites continued to exploit black jazz musicians for financial gain, even in death. For instance, a month after Bessie Smith died, John Hammond, an employee of Columbia Records, wrote an article in Down Beat magazine saying that “a special Bessie Smith memorial album will be released…and this will be the best buy of the year in music” (qtd. in Kofsky, 1998, p. 33). Evidently he was more interested in promoting his fame and fortune than paying respect to the dead. However, Hammond frequently referred to himself as being the protector of black artists to increase his reputation (Kofsky).
Another social effect that was pivotal in jazz was the social stigma associated with the music, not only by whites, but also by blacks. This stigma created an environment for black exploitation because jazz was considered black folk music. The stigma consisted of a belief held by whites that the tradition of African American music was not art, but was rather artistically worthless, trivial and only tolerated for profitability (Levine, 1989). For instance, “Jazz Must Go,” was the title of an article published in 1921 in the Ladies Home Journal (Means, 1968). Peretti (1992) also states that the exploitation of that era was typical and was only for the purpose of profitability. However, in the twentieth century, while jazz was being rejected in the United States, African American jazz musicians received many opportunities overseas. Their artistic ability was acknowledged and encouraged and they discovered that segregation was not widespread (Ross, 2001). Ross further states that though the music had originated in the United States, because of its carrier, “the so-called negros,” the dominant group (whites) quickly condemned it.
Likewise, in the 1920s, jazz was thought of as “a backward, low form of expression” by reputable blacks from Oklahoma City, said the black novelist Ralph Ellison (qtd. in Means, 1968, p. 334). For instance, C.J. Handy’s father told him “he would rather see him dead than become a jazz musician” (Means, 1968, p. 334). One must wonder what brought on this negative view of jazz among blacks. Was it the race factor? Yes, it was. Means relates the views of E. Franklin Frazier and LeRoi Jones, who believed the main reason was that middle class blacks wanted to fit into white society. They repudiated jazz because they thought it was too much a part of black slave heritage (Means). Individual blacks have tried to assimilate into the American mainstream by achieving high levels of education; however, assuming the mainstream culture meant abandoning or destroying their own culture (Baskerville, 2003). Gerard (1998) adds that black musicians and the black middle class ceased to be ashamed of their culture with the civil rights movement and became proud of jazz music.
Jazz music has not only created negative social conditions, but has also been a force for racial integration, respect, and social mobility. Social mobility proves to be a very significant factor because it showcases a similarity between black jazz musicians and black rap artists in terms of their accomplishments in obtaining wealth and stardom because of the invention of their music. Jazz should be given more recognition and should be studied in more high schools and colleges in the United States so that students, particularly black students, can be educated about its origins.
The origins of jazz music have been in much dispute and have caused many controversies. Though people may argue that jazz music was not exclusively invented by blacks, the fact remains that the great innovators of the music are indeed blacks. Gerard (1998) notes that African-American ideologists become offended “that each style of jazz—and each variety of blues, rhythms-and-blues, and rap, for that matter—have been appropriated from the African-American community almost the day after it was first heard there” (p. 14). As classical music is clearly European, jazz music should undoubtedly be considered African-American music.
References
Baskerville, J. D. (2003). The impact of black nationalist ideology on American jazz music of the 1960s and 1970s. Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen Press.
Dawson, N. J. (2001). Can you sing jazz? Perception and appreciation of jazz music among African American young adults. In J. L. Conyers, Jr. (Ed.), African American jazz and rap: Social and philosophical examinations of black expressive behavior (pp. 201-210). Jefferson, NC: McFarland.
Dorsey, L. (2001). “And all that jazz” has African roots! In J. L. Conyers, Jr. (Ed.), African American jazz and rap: Social and philosophical examinations of black expressive behavior (pp. 35-54). Jefferson, NC: McFarland.
Gerard, C. (1998). Jazz in black and white: Race, culture, and identity in the jazz community. Westport, CT: Praeger.
Kofsky, F. (1998). Black music, white music: Illuminating the history and political economy of jazz. New York: Pathfinder.
Levine, L. W. (1989). Jazz and American culture. The Journal of American Folklore, 102(403), 6-22. Retrieved October 23, 2008, from JSTOR database.
Mackey, N. (1992). Other: From noun to verb. Representations 39, 51-70. Retrieved October 28, 2008, from JSTOR database.
Means, R. L. (1968). Notes on Negro jazz: 1920-1950: The use of biographical materials in sociology. The Sociological Quarterly 9(3), 332-342. Retrieved November 5, 2008, from JSTOR database.
Peretti, B. W. (1992). The creation of jazz: Music, race, and culture in urban America. Urbana: University of Illinois Press.
Ross, L. (2001). Jazz musicians in postwar Europe and Japan. In J. L. Conyers, Jr. (Ed.), African American jazz and rap: Social and philosophical examinations of black expressive behavior (pp. 90-116). Jefferson, NC: McFarland.
Thomas, R. (2001). The rhythm of rhyme: A look at rap music as an art form from a jazz perspective. In J. L. Conyers, Jr. (Ed.), African American jazz and rap: Social and philosophical examinations of black expressive behavior (pp. 163-169). Jefferson, NC: McFarland.
Wheaton, J. (1994). All that jazz! New York: Ardsley House.
when i have more time i will come back and give some of my thoughts on the article, but for now let me just say that it will likely convince you that you are right, whatever you might believe lol
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OB1Shinobi wrote:
steamboat28 wrote: Cultural appropriation is a very serious topic. It is, however, often misdiagnosed.
serious how?
can you demonstrate a harm more significant than "i find it distasteful" or "i dont like it"?
Not speaking for Steamboat, but I thought about this question a bit.
Say somebody hears about "Native American sweat lodges" and thinks its a fine idea. They figure "Hey, I'm human. People who came up with sweat lodges are human. So I can do a sweat lodge, even though I have no connection to the culture that created it." So they call themselves a "guru" and build a sweat lodge. They then tell everybody to come to their genuine sweat lodge for spiritual awakening. Then a bunch of people die because, it turns out, this person didn't actually know what they were doing.
Why did those people think a sweat lodge would help them spiritually? Because this guy said so, for sure. But also probably because they have deep associations between "sweat lodge" and "wise Indian elders going on spirit journeys and being one with the land or whatever."
This also made me think about how commonly consumable Americans find any element of Native American cultures that are fairly widely known. People are willing to pay a buttload of money to have a sweat lodge experience, meanwhile, Cree members themselves are being told they can't have a private sweat lodge in their own backyard .
I find discussions on cultural appropriation very complex (and feel like these complexities are often glossed over in favor of catchy one-liners like "we're a culture, not a costume" and the ensuing argument). But these are some of the things I think about when trying to figure it all out.
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Parnerium wrote:
OB1Shinobi wrote:
steamboat28 wrote: Cultural appropriation is a very serious topic. It is, however, often misdiagnosed.
serious how?
can you demonstrate a harm more significant than "i find it distasteful" or "i dont like it"?
Not speaking for Steamboat, but I thought about this question a bit.
Say somebody hears about "Native American sweat lodges" and thinks its a fine idea. They figure "Hey, I'm human. People who came up with sweat lodges are human. So I can do a sweat lodge, even though I have no connection to the culture that created it." So they call themselves a "guru" and build a sweat lodge. They then tell everybody to come to their genuine sweat lodge for spiritual awakening. Then a bunch of people die because, it turns out, this person didn't actually know what they were doing.
Why did those people think a sweat lodge would help them spiritually? Because this guy said so, for sure. But also probably because they have deep associations between "sweat lodge" and "wise Indian elders going on spirit journeys and being one with the land or whatever."
This also made me think about how commonly consumable Americans find any element of Native American cultures that are fairly widely known. People are willing to pay a buttload of money to have a sweat lodge experience, meanwhile, Cree members themselves are being told they can't have a private sweat lodge in their own backyard .
I find discussions on cultural appropriation very complex (and feel like these complexities are often glossed over in favor of catchy one-liners like "we're a culture, not a costume" and the ensuing argument). But these are some of the things I think about when trying to figure it all out.
thank you for bringing these up
this one first because it is easiest and actually builds a philosophical foundation for the next
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/02/07/christian-crees-tear-down-sweat-lodge-15500
main point in this article is that it is other Cree Indians telling him that he cannot have a sweat lodge
there is an actual appropriation of culture relevant to this story, and that is the way that native peoples barred from practicing their indigenous beliefs and forced to adopt Christianity
that was a situation where we can legitimately claim harm and appropriation, because cultural beliefs and practices were literally being taken away from people
but the situation in the article is actually a case of one group of people telling some that he cannot engage in the practices that he believes will better his life because they do not approve
i support him for the same reason i support everyone else who wants to have a sweat lodge if theyre willing to build it and they think it will better their lives
in fact, check this out
in the article Mr Mianscum says "“The sweat lodge helped me turn away from alcohol and things that were hurting my family,” said Miascum, who returned to Cree traditions four years ago after his family suffered the loss of a baby. “I went back to the healing methods of our ancestors, and it turned me around for the better,”
i dont know how bad this mans drinking actually was, and i dont know if the sweat lodge helped him in a way that it would not help someone from a non-native background, but i have got a lot of experience with alcoholics and addicts and imo any alcoholic or addict who finds ANYTHING that MIGHT help them genuinely change their lifestyle has got the green light from me to go for it, whatever its cultural origin might be
the smart way to do it would be to contact Mr Mianscum or some other native person who actually knows how legitimate sweat lodges work
even if only via email, im sure there are credible sources whom one could contact if one were sincere about doing this for a good reason
this builds the foundation for my response to the next article, which, for the sake of brevity here, i will address in another post
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the problem here (in my opinion, obviously) is not that white people hosted or participated in a sweat lodge (actually they probably weret ALL white, just rich and gullible)
the problem is that there was this self help guru was setting up an event that was way more dangerous than he understood or was competent to moderate
he had women shaving their heads, he was dressing himself up as god and his employees as angels of death, and he sent people out to secluded places in the desert for days without food or water
a quote form another site http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-03/self-help-author-imprisoned-for-sweat-lodge-deaths-is-making-a-comeback
"Witnesses say Ray encouraged people who were passing out, hallucinating, and vomiting—symptoms of extreme heat stroke—to fight the discomfort and stay in the lodge as long as possible. Those seeking a true spiritual awakening, he told them, needed “to surrender to death to survive it.”
so youve got this cult leader who is irresponsible and maybe ego-maniacal
yeah, of course bad things happened!
but if you remove the appropriation element from the scenario, bad things would still have happen eventually, they just would have happened differently, because this guy was a bad leader
he was dangerous, ignorant, and irresponsible, and thats where the harm came from
if you remove the irresponsibility from the scenario, the bad things wouldnt have happened at all
as for the people who went to this retreat
they had read his book and believed his message
im willing to bet theres near to a dozen people logged in here at TOTJO within the last two days who read The Secret and loved it, and would have jumped at the opportunity to go to one of this guys seminars
all those folks wanted was to feel like their life was meaningful.
if they were doing it wrong its because they literally didnt know how to do it right
i believe it is their (and all of our) basic human right to explore that question, and to try to figure it out
but its a process of trial and error, and if it leads some of us to experimenting with beliefs and practices that originate with cultures other than our own then fine, good, lets go for it!
the thing isnt to tell someone "no you cant do that because your skin is wrong"
the thing is to tell people "be sincere and diligent and responsible in what you do, and who you trust"
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OB1Shinobi wrote: but if you remove the appropriation element from the scenario, bad things would still have happen eventually, they just would have happened differently, because this guy was a bad leader
he was dangerous, ignorant, and irresponsible, and thats where the harm came from
if you remove the irresponsibility from the scenario, the bad things wouldnt have happened at all
I think removing the element of cultural appropriation isn't helpful, considering we're talking about cultural appropriation. I challenge you to find an example of any phenomenon that happens in a complete vacuum without other factors playing into it.
Perhaps appropriating a practice he didn't understand was one of those irresponsible actions.
OB1Shinobi wrote: the thing isnt to tell someone "no you cant do that because your skin is wrong"
the thing is to tell people "be sincere and diligent and responsible in what you do, and who you trust"
I don't think cultural appropriation has anything to do with skin color whatsoever.
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