Cultural Sensitivity/Appropriation and Anger

More
7 years 7 months ago #258175 by Adder

steamboat28 wrote: Continue with your "people shouldn't be upset about things that don't upset me" rants, though.


Who me? Everything upsets me :P

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
The following user(s) said Thank You: OB1Shinobi

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
7 years 7 months ago #258178 by
Most of my views agree with Malcolm X.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 7 months ago - 7 years 7 months ago #258207 by OB1Shinobi

steamboat28 wrote: Cultural appropriation is a very serious topic. It is, however, often misdiagnosed.


serious how?
can you demonstrate a harm more significant than "i find it distasteful" or "i dont like it"?

and misdiagnosed how?
what are the criteria for proper diagnosis and who gets to define them?

if someone makes a film deliberately ridiculing a group through misrepresentation, i can agree that actual social harm is being done

but when a white guy raps or has dreadlocks i cant see any harm: in my culture we believe that people are allowed to wear what they like and to style their hair as they like, to listen to whatever music they like and even to learn how to play that music themselves if they like

as a matter of fact, we even believe that this kind of freedom is one of our greatest cultural strengths

Continue with your "people shouldn't be upset about things that don't upset me" rants, though.


there is a valid point here, but its inverse is equally valid: everyone else doesnt have to be upset by everything that upsets me (it might even be that i myself dont really have to be upset by it)

EDIT
for the record, i DO believe it is distasteful and offensive to use peoples religious symbols frivolously, and i do think it is a fair standard to expect our storytellers to be respectful of the cultures they depict
but i see this as basic standards of social and professional decency, and i dont conflate or bias them with presuppositions of "white devilry"

also, commercialized depictions of shamanism inspired me to great deal of serious investigation of cultural practices and beliefs of other peoples, which has had innumerable positive benefits in my life

and, while the ninja and samurai of my childhood may have been americanized or appropriated, my fascination for them was genuine and has continued into my adulthood
i am very glad that the ninja turtles and all the cheesy ninja and kung fu movies of the 80 existed, because all that inspired me to the martial arts, which in turn were fundamental to me becoming the person that i am

(seriously can you imagine american culture without ninja and kung fu movies??)

and my experience is not unique: the free proliferation of ideas and the open pursuit of individual interests are to all of our benefit: we gain more as a society (culture) by having this freedom than we would by suppressing it

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 7 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
The following user(s) said Thank You: RyuJin, Manu

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 7 months ago - 7 years 7 months ago #258213 by OB1Shinobi
is Charlie Pride a cultural appropriator?

how about "judo" gene lebell ?

should Dat Nguyen? have focused on math instead of football?

does drinking a margarita count as cultural appropriation?

what about coffee?

what about someone who loves yoga but is not from india? are all the non-indian certified yoga instructors appropriating indian culture?
are they doing something they should be ashamed of even though they are following their passion and helping other people to adopt healthy lifestyles?

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 7 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 7 months ago - 7 years 7 months ago #258214 by OB1Shinobi
this was double post

lacking any further legitimate content, i hope you enjoy this short (and somewhat crass) "im a stupid cat" video instead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpl5mOAXNl4

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 7 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 7 months ago #258423 by OB1Shinobi
found an interesting article which talks about the appropriation of jazz music from black artists and culture, and i wanted to share it because its worth reading regardless of what "side" of the issue you take

from https://www.york.cuny.edu/academics/writing-program/the-york-scholar-1/volume-6.1-fall-2009/the-social-effects-of-jazz

Warning: Spoiler!


when i have more time i will come back and give some of my thoughts on the article, but for now let me just say that it will likely convince you that you are right, whatever you might believe lol

People are complicated.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
7 years 7 months ago #258486 by

OB1Shinobi wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Cultural appropriation is a very serious topic. It is, however, often misdiagnosed.


serious how?
can you demonstrate a harm more significant than "i find it distasteful" or "i dont like it"?


Not speaking for Steamboat, but I thought about this question a bit.

Say somebody hears about "Native American sweat lodges" and thinks its a fine idea. They figure "Hey, I'm human. People who came up with sweat lodges are human. So I can do a sweat lodge, even though I have no connection to the culture that created it." So they call themselves a "guru" and build a sweat lodge. They then tell everybody to come to their genuine sweat lodge for spiritual awakening. Then a bunch of people die because, it turns out, this person didn't actually know what they were doing.

Why did those people think a sweat lodge would help them spiritually? Because this guy said so, for sure. But also probably because they have deep associations between "sweat lodge" and "wise Indian elders going on spirit journeys and being one with the land or whatever."

This also made me think about how commonly consumable Americans find any element of Native American cultures that are fairly widely known. People are willing to pay a buttload of money to have a sweat lodge experience, meanwhile, Cree members themselves are being told they can't have a private sweat lodge in their own backyard .

I find discussions on cultural appropriation very complex (and feel like these complexities are often glossed over in favor of catchy one-liners like "we're a culture, not a costume" and the ensuing argument). But these are some of the things I think about when trying to figure it all out.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 6 months ago - 7 years 6 months ago #258718 by OB1Shinobi

Parnerium wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Cultural appropriation is a very serious topic. It is, however, often misdiagnosed.


serious how?
can you demonstrate a harm more significant than "i find it distasteful" or "i dont like it"?


Not speaking for Steamboat, but I thought about this question a bit.

Say somebody hears about "Native American sweat lodges" and thinks its a fine idea. They figure "Hey, I'm human. People who came up with sweat lodges are human. So I can do a sweat lodge, even though I have no connection to the culture that created it." So they call themselves a "guru" and build a sweat lodge. They then tell everybody to come to their genuine sweat lodge for spiritual awakening. Then a bunch of people die because, it turns out, this person didn't actually know what they were doing.

Why did those people think a sweat lodge would help them spiritually? Because this guy said so, for sure. But also probably because they have deep associations between "sweat lodge" and "wise Indian elders going on spirit journeys and being one with the land or whatever."

This also made me think about how commonly consumable Americans find any element of Native American cultures that are fairly widely known. People are willing to pay a buttload of money to have a sweat lodge experience, meanwhile, Cree members themselves are being told they can't have a private sweat lodge in their own backyard .

I find discussions on cultural appropriation very complex (and feel like these complexities are often glossed over in favor of catchy one-liners like "we're a culture, not a costume" and the ensuing argument). But these are some of the things I think about when trying to figure it all out.


thank you for bringing these up :-)

this one first because it is easiest and actually builds a philosophical foundation for the next
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/02/07/christian-crees-tear-down-sweat-lodge-15500

main point in this article is that it is other Cree Indians telling him that he cannot have a sweat lodge

there is an actual appropriation of culture relevant to this story, and that is the way that native peoples barred from practicing their indigenous beliefs and forced to adopt Christianity

that was a situation where we can legitimately claim harm and appropriation, because cultural beliefs and practices were literally being taken away from people

but the situation in the article is actually a case of one group of people telling some that he cannot engage in the practices that he believes will better his life because they do not approve

i support him for the same reason i support everyone else who wants to have a sweat lodge if theyre willing to build it and they think it will better their lives

in fact, check this out
in the article Mr Mianscum says "“The sweat lodge helped me turn away from alcohol and things that were hurting my family,” said Miascum, who returned to Cree traditions four years ago after his family suffered the loss of a baby. “I went back to the healing methods of our ancestors, and it turned me around for the better,”

i dont know how bad this mans drinking actually was, and i dont know if the sweat lodge helped him in a way that it would not help someone from a non-native background, but i have got a lot of experience with alcoholics and addicts and imo any alcoholic or addict who finds ANYTHING that MIGHT help them genuinely change their lifestyle has got the green light from me to go for it, whatever its cultural origin might be

the smart way to do it would be to contact Mr Mianscum or some other native person who actually knows how legitimate sweat lodges work

even if only via email, im sure there are credible sources whom one could contact if one were sincere about doing this for a good reason

this builds the foundation for my response to the next article, which, for the sake of brevity here, i will address in another post

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 6 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 6 months ago - 7 years 6 months ago #258719 by OB1Shinobi
about this http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/james-arthur-ray-arizona-sweat-lodge/story?id=11016900

the problem here (in my opinion, obviously) is not that white people hosted or participated in a sweat lodge (actually they probably weret ALL white, just rich and gullible)

the problem is that there was this self help guru was setting up an event that was way more dangerous than he understood or was competent to moderate

he had women shaving their heads, he was dressing himself up as god and his employees as angels of death, and he sent people out to secluded places in the desert for days without food or water

a quote form another site http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-03/self-help-author-imprisoned-for-sweat-lodge-deaths-is-making-a-comeback

"Witnesses say Ray encouraged people who were passing out, hallucinating, and vomiting—symptoms of extreme heat stroke—to fight the discomfort and stay in the lodge as long as possible. Those seeking a true spiritual awakening, he told them, needed “to surrender to death to survive it.”

so youve got this cult leader who is irresponsible and maybe ego-maniacal

yeah, of course bad things happened!

but if you remove the appropriation element from the scenario, bad things would still have happen eventually, they just would have happened differently, because this guy was a bad leader

he was dangerous, ignorant, and irresponsible, and thats where the harm came from

if you remove the irresponsibility from the scenario, the bad things wouldnt have happened at all

as for the people who went to this retreat
they had read his book and believed his message

im willing to bet theres near to a dozen people logged in here at TOTJO within the last two days who read The Secret and loved it, and would have jumped at the opportunity to go to one of this guys seminars

all those folks wanted was to feel like their life was meaningful.
if they were doing it wrong its because they literally didnt know how to do it right

i believe it is their (and all of our) basic human right to explore that question, and to try to figure it out

but its a process of trial and error, and if it leads some of us to experimenting with beliefs and practices that originate with cultures other than our own then fine, good, lets go for it!

the thing isnt to tell someone "no you cant do that because your skin is wrong"
the thing is to tell people "be sincere and diligent and responsible in what you do, and who you trust"

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 6 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
7 years 6 months ago #258737 by

OB1Shinobi wrote: but if you remove the appropriation element from the scenario, bad things would still have happen eventually, they just would have happened differently, because this guy was a bad leader

he was dangerous, ignorant, and irresponsible, and thats where the harm came from

if you remove the irresponsibility from the scenario, the bad things wouldnt have happened at all


I think removing the element of cultural appropriation isn't helpful, considering we're talking about cultural appropriation. I challenge you to find an example of any phenomenon that happens in a complete vacuum without other factors playing into it.

Perhaps appropriating a practice he didn't understand was one of those irresponsible actions.

OB1Shinobi wrote: the thing isnt to tell someone "no you cant do that because your skin is wrong"
the thing is to tell people "be sincere and diligent and responsible in what you do, and who you trust"


I don't think cultural appropriation has anything to do with skin color whatsoever.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: ZerokevlarVerheilenChaotishRabeRiniTavi