Why do people here feel unimportant?

Why should you feel important?

(Edit: hadn't seen Streen's post, I guess him and I are saying the same thing)

Adi wrote:

Dechlain wrote: To me it is profanity in forum posts which debases all of us.

That's your biggest concern, in response to all of the valid and real concerns posted in this thread? Profanity in a forum post?

So... let me make sure I have this right. A swear word used by someone who was angry (and is also notoriously sweary to begin with) is more important to you than:

• Kit's feelings of trivialization by people who hold authority/rank here?
• People telling OB1Shinobi to shut up instead of engaging him on his points and discussing them?
• elizabeth being dismissed by people that are "dominant in the forums presently and ... made to feel that [she] should not be here"?
• Lykeios pointing out that members of this community have attitudes that don't befit their status, and that suggestions are often shot down out of hand?
• steamboat explaining that "we're petty, mean, cliquish, self-important, attached to tradition, afraid of change, and exclusive"?
• The various problems I listed in my post, such as cliquishness, nastiness, intolerance and poor settlement of disputes?

Lets respect that we each have different contributions to the conversation and that nobody's contribution is worth less than another's. I will not allow you to act as if Dechlain's contribution is less worthy than yours, because it isn't. It's only that way to YOU and you are not the deciding factor on what should matter to the rest of us.

That's actually kind of the point of this whole thread.

ren wrote: Why should you feel important?

That is an excellent question, i have been wondering about that myself, the thing is , i want to matter , i want to see that my input is helping the Temple , i want a lot of things, i like it when people show me some love, is that selfish , yeah it is , do i need it , yep . to a certain extend , do i get upset if i dont get it .. yeah to some degree , do i blame other , nope ...this is my problem to a certain degree , and if i blame someone they are a pm away ...and i adress them .. and hope that they see my point

This is a story I’d like to share…
There was a musician in an orchestra, setting at rehearsal one day, looking around at all the other instruments while they were playing. Some, like the Tuba were big and shiny. Some, like the bright and played a lot like the trumpets and French horns. There were rows of clarinets and violins and flutes. And at the front was the ever impressive conductor; leading them all with his baton waving in the air as he peered over his huge music stand buried with page after page of scores. So many voices and so many musicians… and he looked down at the tiny piccolo in his hands and thought, “my instrument is so small and unimportant; and, I don’t play that often...”

So the next day he decided he was going to skip rehearsal and go to the movies instead. And during rehearsal the music was playing, the conductor waved his baton and all was good. For a few seconds. Then the conductor violently flailed the baton over his head and repeatedly declared, in a loud voice, “STOP, stop, stop, stop!” He leaned over the scores of music littering his music stand and scowled back and forth, eying each member, looking for the missing voice.

You see, even though the piccolo is small and does not always play, it is a critical voice in the harmony, even carrying the melody at times. And even though there may only be one, the music is not complete without it. And the sound is not whole.

[hr]
When we step back and look at it, the Universe is in a constant state of harmony; which is because of Balance. Balance is the struggle between two forces. Peace is when neither of the two forces has greater influence; when they are in stale mate. When we look at the yin yang we see a good representation of the Universe. Not that it is equal parts but the influence of each part. Darkness envelopes everything. But there is light. Light, the stars, are like wisdom and knowledge which lights the way into the dark for us as we explore and reach further into the unknown. We are like the planets. We reflect the light and show all the bodies around us; the moons, belts and other cosmic entities which share our orbit or path.

Even in the depths of space, we can still see the lights of distant stars, illuminating the void around us. Even when setting in the deepest, darkest parts of our universe, the light is still visible if even barely.

When we find ourselves there, let us not despair in our current predicament but rather let us head back toward the light. Seek the knowledge and wisdom to understand where we are and what is there for us. And find solace in knowing that even though we feel so very far away and small in such a great and expansive universe that we are there; we do matter and each one of has some part to do, some reason for being there.

Whether we realize it or not, each of us is important. And we each face our own difficulties at times. Sometimes it helps to be reminded that we are not in this alone and that there are always others there that can either help, or need help. And that is one place our strength shines bright.

(spoilered for length)

it's not so much feeling important. Lets change the words up a little then. lets turn it into worth. I have a value. And I damn sure know what it is. But does the Temple? Not with the way it's been acting.

Take a relationship. You have Tom over here who's sitting on his computer day in and day out.
Kelly (his partner) comes in and says "Hey Tom, I have a legitimate concern about some of the things you are doing."
Tom replies "Eh, just deal with it."
"Hey, Tom, I seriously think we need to talk. I'm not feeling valued in our relationship."
Tom hardly glances at Kelly and replies "Well, you can't please everybody."

Do you know what someone who values their own worth does in a relationship like that? They walk. I spent 30 years in a relationship like that. Where my worth wasn't valued. It was belittled and sacrificed for the other's. Do you know what I did when I finally figured it out? After talking didn't work, I told my 'mother' she was not welcome in my life. She was not to contact me or my family ever again. And I left to work the rest of the way through the abuse.

I've spent nearly THREE YEARS at this Temple and I don't remember how many times I've paused and thought "Is this worth it? Am I valued here?" I can tell you the last time. It was when it took a breath over a month without a word on what was going on with my Knighthood Trials. I wondered "If it takes this long, do they really want me?" Do you know what would have helped? A timeline in the FAQ, some word about what's going on or how it was done. ANYTHING. I had to ask for information from two people. But if there was some TRANSPARENCY I would have been fine. I'm not asking to know everything that's going on in the Council. I don't need to. All I'm asking is to be treated as a decent human being. A little bit of common courtesy. I'm STILL waiting to hear back on a proposal I made two months ago.

I don't need to be hand fed. I don't need someone to tell me "Hey, you're a valuable asset to this temple" most days. I KNOW what I bring to the table. I KNOW what I can do. But when I've spent the last six months working solo in a position that requires at LEAST two people trying to hold things together with paracord and wishes. I'm the primary caretaker for a toddler so I get LITTERALY (not the figuratively version) an HOUR to myself at home before I have to go to bed. And then I come here. Someone brings up a problem, I add my voice to the mix. And then I get told "Shut up and color." "Eh, can't please everyone."... I've spent too long being quiet due to giving too much respect to rank. Things need to change here. This total lack of respect, lack of empathy, lack of concern from the higher ranks, real or not, it's perceived... I know I'm not the only person who feels that their value is considered worthless here (no not all the time). I know there are people who would miss me if I left. But I feel that the Temple wouldn't give two shits about what it lost. What it drove away.

I made a comment here that it would be my loss if I left the Temple, Akkarin replied that it would also be the Temples loss... I'll be honest. I cried. My daughter had gotten me up at 4am after being unable to fall asleep until 11. I was facing going back to work already over tired, sick, and stressed beyond my limits to the point I told my supervisor that if I didn't get a break, I would break. And then to have my concerns, if not exactly pissed on, dismissed out of hand by prominent and respected people of rank here.

You know, with eight words Akkarin single-handedly managed to turn my day around. I was ready to walk into Mental Health that morning and fuck all that was going on at work. Not only did I make it through the day, but because of Akkarin's compassion, I had the strength to pull some good out of it too. Because of him I didn't just survive the day, I enjoyed parts of it.

I'm standing here telling you how I feel about this place. I LOVE the ideals of the Temple. I want to be apart of it, I want to be what helps it grow. With every fiber of my being, my spirit, I believe this place can be great. I don't care if my ideas aren't implemented. If I think the walls should be painted a vibrant purple and everyone else is happy with the mushroom, then that's perfectly fine. But I want someone to say "You know, let's talk about this purple thing..."

Hey all. I thought I'd pipe in a little bit.

When I first started I was full of awe and amazement. This was bit, this was the place! I had some nice folk greeting me on the forums and in chat. I felt very welcomed. About a month in that feeling vanished. I felt kind of ignored and looked over. No one responded to some of my posts and others looked down on them with witty and clever brush offs. There is definitely a supremely issue here.
The other shoe. I've earned some reputation and I find myself doing the same things that bugged me. Recently I decided I couldn't do it anymore. When someone says something different or you believe it wrong, you still need to be respectful. I've seen comments such as "that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen you post.". WTF is that?
Disagreement can breed amazing discussion but it can also scar people. I'm not saying we need to be PC all the time but a little etiquette wouldn't hurt.

I agree about etiquette - but I think courtesy should go beyond simple politeness (which I am guilty of chucking out the window too many times.) For example, I hate that people use the rant thread to passive-aggressively attack other users — nothing constructive could ever come of that. This is another component to the general nastiness of this community that I mentioned that transcends where it is usually found (political discussions.)

And you know, I had the exact same experience starting off - a month of feeling welcomed and being in awe/amazement, and then that feeling wearing off. Since then, it's been an on/off struggle to stay. There are forces compelling me to move along as well as reasons that oblige me to stay. Despite all I've written in this thread, in general the latter outweigh the former. But there are days where it's not so simple.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: There is an overwhelming feeling of "if you don't like it, leave" here. It is repeated often (it is in the FAQ, for pity's sake) to people who just want to help. Nobody in a position of power should EVER say "suck it up" or worse "Jedi up" (which is so offensive, I can't even express it) to anyone else.

Compassion. Compassion, compassion, compassion. Empathy. Please. From YOU. Whoever you are.

oh my. I've made a huge mistake. When I was talking about the term "Jedi up" in a negative way here, I was not IN ANY WAY talking about the beautiful post written here: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/114160-being-a-jedi-when-it-s-hard by Cabur Senaar. I feel just awful about the accidental connection between the two.

If you haven't read that post, please do. Cabur explains his idea beautifully and I agree with him completely.

Again, I am so sorry. It was absolutely a coincidence.

Ok. Less than 24 hours. 6 pages. Some very, very good points brought up.

Now, if it's okay with everyone, I would like to shift the discussion just a little to answer the questions "What would make you feel more important or more valued?" (thanks for the idea on changing the wording Kit )

This can be things that others can do and things that you think that you yourself can do. I have seen multiple posts say "I know that it's partly my issue." Most people come here looking for some self improvement and I see a chance for that here. We're here to help with that in any way that we can. I also see some opportunity for improvement of this community.

I don't want to see blame here. No names. No specific calling out. I know that this is very similar to the initial question but I believe that it is a subtle difference that warrants it's own answering. If a mod feels that it's a different enough conversation to create it's own thread than by all means do so.

Let's hear some constructive ideas for improvement.

Adi wrote: I agree about etiquette - but I think courtesy should go beyond simple politeness (which I am guilty of chucking out the window too many times.) For example, I hate that people use the rant thread to passive-aggressively attack other users — nothing constructive could ever come of that. This is another component to the general nastiness of this community that I mentioned that transcends where it is usually found (political discussions.)

Do you really not get that some people are talking about themselves in that thread?

Stop taking everything in the world personally, Adi. You're only hurting yourself.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: Do you really not get that some people are talking about themselves in that thread?

Stop taking everything in the world personally, Adi. You're only hurting yourself.

Umm. I wasn't talking about you or me. If you can't accept that, I don't know what else to say. Sorry if you're upset.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: oh my. I've made a huge mistake.

Nah. A tiny disconnect and we solved it quietly and politely. Absolutely no apology necessary.

More to the point, thank you, sincerely, for stepping up and showing the behavior you want to see. Not just in this instance, but every day.

Adi wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote: Do you really not get that some people are talking about themselves in that thread?

Stop taking everything in the world personally, Adi. You're only hurting yourself.

Umm. I wasn't talking about you or me. If you can't accept that, I don't know what else to say. Sorry if you're upset.

Passive aggressive, eh? I'm leaving the funhouse thread now.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: Passive aggressive, eh? I'm leaving the funhouse thread now.

I really was not talking about either of us, and I don't know what to say if you can't accept that. It's a trend that predates both our times here. I'm sorry you're bothered by what I said, but it was not an attack on you or a response to me feeling slighted by something you or anyone else said.

I borrowed this from another thread and edited it because it came from a forum that is not open to the same membership as this one. I did this not because everyone doesn't deserve to read said thread but because I wanted to avoid stepping on toes. Maybe the quote wouldn't have caused a problem, maybe it would have. I chose to avoid the possibility.

Council Member wrote: The [topic discussed in another thread] are being discussed in Council at the moment, but as things stand you [topic discussed in said thread] (or wait until the discussion has finished lol).

Is this the kind of thing that people would like to see more? At least an acknowledgment that the topics being discussed here are also being discussed "higher up" when it's a topic that needs the Council's approval? (some things do not need to go all the way to Council to change, that's all I meant)

I know this is only one point and I'm not saying that this would be the fix all, just that it would be a step in the right direction.

Council transparency is something I have been asking for for ages and is one thing I believe that would help, in fact, it is probably the primary solution.

your new question I had to think about.
I dont care if I am important here but I do think it is important to me at the moment to give back to the Temple for all the help and advice I have been given here.
In order for me to feel a part of this community, a thing which has importance to me. Then I need to respond more, get over the nobody wants to hear my thoughts. Go in chat maybe more, and say hello (which fell of as things got stressed)
make this more somewhere others want to be, which in turn gives me opportunitys to learn and hear many different opinions.
This is important to me, that it grows and even if no one ever remembers me as more than a pain.
Thats important, (Totjo) for all that are here now and will one day join.

Cabur Senaar wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote: oh my. I've made a huge mistake.

Nah. A tiny disconnect and we solved it quietly and politely. Absolutely no apology necessary.

More to the point, thank you, sincerely, for stepping up and showing the behavior you want to see. Not just in this instance, but every day.

Thanks Cabur. I am humbled by the compliment. I just wish I'd quit causing so many of the train wrecks in the first place.
/sneaks off again

Edan wrote: Council transparency is something I have been asking for for ages and is one thing I believe that would help, in fact, it is probably the primary solution.

I'm curious, just curious, not meaning to sound confrontational or anything like that, what does Council transparency mean?

Or, what is it that is felt we're not being transparent about?

I ask; because, I have been on Council for a while and as far as I know we/they have not hidden anything for the membership. There are things discussed amongst us as if we would in PMs, but that is so there are no miscommunications when we're trying to figure things out.

If anyone ever wanted to know what we were discussing all they would have to do is ask. Most of the time it would be perfectly fine for any member to see every word said. Now, that does not mean we say things that would not be fine for all to see. What that means is that sometimes things are discussed that were sent to us via PM and "that" person may not want to share their thoughts with the whole world.

Complete transparency... does everyone know that not only do we respect your privacy but we cherish and strive to protect it? We leave the groups to discuss what ever it is they discuss. We do not interfere... No one has to worry about messages being gone through. Chats being set in on. Except for the public forums, there is little regulation or transparency.

Does everyone know that there is a forum for Moderators? One of the things discussed there is when we get PMs or "report to moderator" notices about things people have said or done.

There are lots of things that go on in the back ground the average member doesn't really know about. And there are a few reasons for that. One is, we don't want people that aren't involved in the inner goings on to spend their time worrying when they have so many other things to be attending to. Another is that some things are personal to the parties being discussed. No one would want their issues on display for all to see. Another reason that tends to be overlooked a lot is that too many cooks spoils the soup. We value input and very often ask for it. Maybe not to the masses, but I know for certain that I have asked different members their opinions on topics being discussed. Helps to get different points of view. But a crowd shouting what they want just causes disorder. And I am NOT referring to all of you as a disordered crowd. But it is very overwhelming when everyone wants it done their way. And it is very disheartening to spend so much time, volunteer time, that we get little to no thanks for, trying to keep everything going and then having accusations brought to us.

Why do people feel unimportant...
I posed something about two pages ago. It got a few thank you's... and zero discussion. As many of you feel we over look what you have to say, we get the exact same feeling on a regular basis.

So why do we bother. Because each of you are important to us and we do care. We really care. And we love each of you. Even when we disagree, get ignored or are suspect of something. Each of you mater to us... and so we continue, and try to help.

Goken wrote: Ok. Less than 24 hours. 6 pages. Some very, very good points brought up.

Now, if it's okay with everyone, I would like to shift the discussion just a little to answer the questions "What would make you feel more important or more valued?" (thanks for the idea on changing the wording Kit )

This can be things that others can do and things that you think that you yourself can do. I have seen multiple posts say "I know that it's partly my issue." Most people come here looking for some self improvement and I see a chance for that here. We're here to help with that in any way that we can. I also see some opportunity for improvement of this community.

I don't want to see blame here. No names. No specific calling out. I know that this is very similar to the initial question but I believe that it is a subtle difference that warrants it's own answering. If a mod feels that it's a different enough conversation to create it's own thread than by all means do so.

Let's hear some constructive ideas for improvement.

Just in case it got lost in my mile long post:

Kit wrote: If I think the walls should be painted a vibrant purple and everyone else is happy with the mushroom, then that's perfectly fine. But I want someone to say "You know, let's talk about this purple thing..."

I want some more transparency. I understand that there are some things that don't need to be talked about in the open (only thing that comes to mind are other member's personal stuff). I want some common courtesy across all ranks. If something is taking a while, let that person know. Even a simple "Hey, we're still talking about it" lets me know that it's still in the eyes of those working it. If someone has a concern, not to dismiss it out-of-hand. I want people to realize what their rank MEANS. That it has weight. What they say often caries more because of some band under their picture. I'm not saying they should censor but just be AWARE of what it means. We have all sorts of classes at every level for this in the Air Force. Maybe something in a lesson plan somewhere.

I'll get back with you if I think of something more. Thank you Goken for this thread and this opportunity.