Rank

note: there has been a change in the hot tub time machine rules. it is no longer usable by apprentices or higher. they have to use the luxury spa planet via tardus...that is all :silly:

OB1Shinobi wrote: yes but i am/we are american and america is one of the cultures it has negative connotations in

"Master", even in America, only has negative connotations in certain contexts. If you're discussing anything that can be construed as slavery (that isn't the fun, consensual, bedroom sort) or if you're using it as a style of address for a male over the age of about 15, then yes, it's extremely negative and/or insulting.

Otherwise, it's simply a statement. A master craftsman is just really good at what they do. A training master is one who has mastered what they are currently training. It's not an inherently negative thing.

I have a friend that claims he'll neither kneel nor bow before any man. And that's admirable. But at the same time he's willing to admit that he respects other people great amounts, and he's willing to admit there are people superior to him in many skills and contexts. And, ultimately, aren't those two motions--the kneel and the bow--displays of respect toward people who have attained a level of superiority in what they do?

i acknowledge and respect all of your points, to a certain degree i even agree with them

i especially resonate with the idea that a warrior chooses to kneel not necessarily to a person but to an ideal or a cause

the pespective that i am coming from is basically that at a certain point in my life i feel that it will be appropriate for me to put together a prison ministry and i know that in that environment there is no way i can go in there and use or even defend the word master

its about being effective as a social force and as a social force the word "mentor" is more effective

im not disagreeing and im definitely not expecting anyone to change what theyve accepted as custom, i understand no one likes to do that - i dont like to myself

im only expressing something i feel needs to be acknowledged because its relevant

and the u.k. i expect to be a little different because of the recent history

but we in the usa are still recovering from the master / slave experience and like it or not it frames a certain reality that we have to deal with

so with that i have spoken my piece/peace

i dont really have any more to say on it - again im respectful of the different views

When Jackie and I were actively training together, I called her my life mentor to most people. "Master" made it seem like I was some kind of otaku (anime fanatic) who was obsessed with a culture that wasn't mine. People looked much more at ease when I said I had a space lesbian mentor named Jackie than when I told them I had a Master. Hysterical... Lol.

But, to me, they were the same thing. Just one for the masses.

A rank in itself is meaningless. The expectations we place on ourselves in accordance with that rank is the important bit for me.

The expectations of how others should view/treat you because of rank is where it starts to get ugly, and I start to dig my heels in.

I might "kneel or bow" to someone out of respect, but not out of submission or acceptance of their rank above my own. Maybe that makes me arrogant? I don't know.

I grew up in a country where referring to your domestic employer as master or madam is still relatively common, and not seen as a sign of dominance or servitude.

My former master liked to be referred to as such, and I still do call him that. My current master gives me the evil eye when I do it Ask either how submissive or slave like I am :woohoo: :whistle:


I like the "master carpenter" connotation Ryujin. Master electrician and builder is still used here. And in performance, we are always expected to refer to the Maestro.

I tried reading 'Wise Teacher, Wise Student' by Alexander Berzin in regards to this topic from a Tibetan POV, OMG too much information :S

Some interesting points are, initial assumptions;

(1) Almost all spiritual seekers progress through stages along the spiritual path.
(2) Most practitioners study with several teachers during their lifetimes and build up different relationships with each.
(3) Not every spiritual teacher has reached the same level of accomplishment.
(4) The type of relationship appropriate between a specific seeker and a specific teacher depends upon the spiritual level of each.
(5) People usually relate to their teachers in progressively deeper manners as they advance along the spiritual path.
(6) Because the same teacher may play different roles in the spiritual life of each seeker, the most appropriate relationship
each seeker has with that teacher may be different.

And to 'clarify' the discussion;

let us adopt certain conventions. Let us call someone who conveys information about Buddha’s teachings from a withdrawn perspective a “Buddhism professor.”

A person who not merely sits in the audience, but who actually studies with such a Buddhism professor would be a “student of Buddhism.”

Someone, on the other hand, who imparts the teachings from the point of view of their practical application to life, based on personal experience, we shall name a “Dharma instructor.”

Someone who learns practical Buddhism from a Dharma instructor would be his or her “Dharma pupil.”

A person who trains others in the pragmatic aspects of meditation or ritual practice, we shall call a “meditation or ritual trainer.” The corresponding spiritual seeker would be a “meditation or ritual trainee.”

We shall use “spiritual mentor,” in the Mahayana sense, for someone who leads others along the graded path to enlightenment.

Someone whom a spiritual mentor leads along the graded path would be his or her “disciple,” starting with a seeker who wishes first for spiritual goals only in this lifetime, or also for future generations. Among spiritual mentors, someone who confers Mahayana safe direction or either lay or monastic vows, we shall call a “refuge or vow preceptor.” Someone who receives refuge or liberation vows from such a preceptor would be a member of the person’s “refuge or vow progeny.”

A mentor who teaches the methods for developing bodhichitta and who leads a seeker along the bodhisattva path, we shall name a “Mahayana master.” Someone whom he or she guides would be a “Mahayana disciple.” Further, a Mahayana master who leads disciples to enlightenment through the methods of tantra, we shall designate a “tantric master.” Corresponding to a tantric master would be a “tantric disciple.”

Further, the teacher who turns a seeker’s heart and mind most strongly to the Dharma we shall refer to as a “root guru.” “Spiritual teacher” and “spiritual seeker” will be used as general terms.

Classical textual presentations of the relationship between a spiritual seeker and a spiritual teacher speak only about specific categories of mentors and disciples. They do not pertain to prior levels of teachers or seekers. On the one side, they concern spiritual mentors who are primarily Mahayana masters, tantric masters, or root gurus—all three of whom are gurus, lamas, and spiritual friends. On the other side, they deal mainly with either Mahayana or tantric disciples. The relationship
between a refuge or vow preceptor and his or her refuge or vow progeny usually appears in a separate context: the discussion of monastic discipline. The emphasis there is almost exclusively on the relationship with a preceptor for monastic vows.

LOL :huh:

From a military background,where adherence to regulation and rank is etched in stone,I like rank. It is an easy way for me to tell who does what, how long a person has been in uniform, etc, at a glance.

'Oh, this guy has a gold oak leaf cluster on, he has to have been in at least 10 years and has been to a number of command schools by now, better salute and call him sir'. ' oh, this kid has a gold bar on, must have just been pinned a lieutenant and probably doesnt know his ass from a hole in the ground, better keep an eye on him'.

See how that works, for me at least?'

it's nice to see that butter bars get treated the same all over.... :lol: