Rank

Rank does not have to imply duty for me, but duty can easily fit into how I see rank, and in those cases it works well... so I support it.

I see rank as being meant to be accessible in a linear progression from a common starting point. In that regard it would seem discrete points along that path would inherently imply progression, else they do instead become more like badges of affiliation to some nature of difference. I think a rank system should reflect shared experience, not difference, and its through this avenue that others with further progression (higher rank) can better provide assistance to those who are newer because it tells them where they are and they themselves know what that meant to them.

This then is also an ideal foundation to overlay duty, conditionally.... as when the duty supports the activity of progression I think it works well, otherwise it's just a 'badge' of difference pretending to be a rank.

A symbol of who you are?

Tricky question, as in this example here at the Temple people might very well say they want to become that concept of Jedi they have.... in which case reaching Knight could very well be a symbolic rank for them, it was for me!! As at TOTJO I think its about progressing to 'Knight'. I think once at Knight your at the highest rank of Jedi in regards to ones commitment to ones path. To me that is 'the' rank of the fully committed Jedi. The rank scheme IMO above that then changes to reflect various things of relevance to Temple operation which partially represent things such as progression, duty, commitment etc, and by my definition do become more like badges then proper ranks. This is my own personal view though, just thinking out loud
:lol:

maybe this has been said already, im sure its been discussed at some point

in my country "master" has come to mean someone who can shackle you to an iron ring on a wall in the barn and whip you to death

a "master" is someone who has authority to dominate you

im ok with words like mentor - sensei - instructor - coach - teacher - tutor - advisor - consultant

there may be others i havent included

i respect the work people have put in and i respect the commitment to personal excellence and to helping others achieve personal excellence

but "master" is a word which is generally going to be percieved as pretentious and insulting

and i guarantee that its not gonna fly in a prison ministry

or a boxing gym on the east side

and personally, id eventually like to do both

well sensei literally means master/superior...senpai means equal. in some cultures yes it has come to hold a negative connotation but not in all....

So what does your rank mean to you?

to me it means that i have achieved the completion of a set of required tasks, but still have more tasks remaining. it means that i have added responsibilities towards totjo and its members. it means that others see me in a certain light.

Is it important?

it's not something i can't live without. i'm still a jedi whether i carry rank or not. i'm still someone to lead by example, i'm still someone for others to look up to. i still have duties and responsibilities to the world.

A symbol of who you are?

not of who i am, but of what i am...it just happens that who i choose to be coincides with what i am.

Do you become something more, better, just by that change of colour?

no not more and not better. it's simply another step on the path of life

yes but i am/we are american and america is one of the cultures it has negative connotations in

we will be very hard pressed to find a black person willing to call a white person "master"

it happens but it is very much the exception

also

the japanese culture is known for its rigidly hierarchical social structure
which again is not appropriate to this age and certainly not to american culture

and in any event the more appropriate to our society interpretation of the word sensei is "teacher"

"superior" only in the sense that there is a definite and structured body of knowledge which has been formalized

and the sensei has made the requisite and predetermined step by step progression through that system to the point where they are qualified to lead others through that same progression

i understand and accept that people are free to do as they will - im not going on any crusades which require other people to accept my views - certainly i dont think its my place to tell totjo what terminology to use

but it is my place to point out the humor of advocating non attachment while being attached to a word which is clearly no longer appropriate

if one has truly reached the level of character development worthy of the title of master then there would be no problem with letting go of the word when it becomes clear that the word itself is counter productive

and, certainly here in america where masters are people who own slaves, the word "master" is very much counter productive

mentor is a superior word by far - it is more socially functional and it more accurately conveys the essence of the mentor/apprentice relationship, which does not require whips or chains in most circumstances

but it is my place to point out the humor of advocating non attachment while being attached to a word which is clearly no longer appropriate

Has anyone here demanded their rank be used?

:lol:...

I think not...

The term "master" as we use it, is more along the lines of "teacher" or, as you said, "mentor"...

I believe "master carpenter", "master violinist", "master mason", "master electrician" and many others still exist...

And have no connnection to slavery...

My true rank here, is "Master Knight", supposedly meaning I've "mastered" all things "knightly"... What that really means, is my peers have determined (I've fooled them?) that I was worthy of the title... :lol:...

Be wary of any who insist on their titles...

here within totjo, the titles do serve a purpose....they show the new members whom they can go to with their questions in regards to jediism as totjo perceives it....without those little bars our newer members would be wandering around blindly...

but as jestor pointed out, none of us go around demanding to be called by our titles...and absolutely be wary of anyone that demands to be called by a title...if they demand it they don't deserve it....

I believe "master carpenter", "master violinist", "master mason", "master electrician" and many others still exist...

master carpenter doesn't get used much anymore...unless you're working with an "old school" carpenter....usually we call them lead carpenters now...i was a lead carpenter before the economy collapsed...while some l/c's get lazy (basically just pointing things out to the crew) i was uncomfortable with it and would often find an area of the site to work alone...oftentimes i would be allowed to frame everything under the trusses alone. it's nice to be left alone when working

I'm demanding to use my Apprentice rank privileges, where's the hot tub time machine Ryu?

For me, my rank means how "much" I've proceeded on the way of becoming a Jedi. But it also reminds me of how much work I still have to do; and as I know myself, even when I become a Knight I'll still think about bettering myself, and not being filled up by my fancy new rank.
So in a way it means much to me, but it doesn't mean I put myself above others, just because they are still doing the initiate programm... I was there once, too, and everyone had to start there to get here.

Whenever the subject comes up, which is pretty rarely, I generally just tell people that I'm a "(Jedi) Knight". or I'll say a "Priest". For the practical psychological application of any rank system - I mean, people understand particular rank appellations as a sort of 'credibility' marker - that seems to suffice. Yet, like I said : that is really rare.

"Master" as it were, and like Jestor, RyuJin and Elizabeth were pointing out, is not so much a term of 'authority' but more a designation - or a sign of recognition perhaps - of someone having 'mastered' some skills. And like Zenchi pointed out too, one only has to be an Apprentice to be allowed into the hot tub room ...

In the case of the Jedi, our skills, the important ones anyway, are not very assertive or noisy. They are also qualities that self-proclamation of such essentially negates them (wisdom, humility, virtue ...) ; their "mastery" essentially means letting go of obtaining them.

Therefore, as Jestor stated, be very cautious of anyone insisting on any sort of personal superiority corresponding to rank.

"Sensei" is a good example of the principle. Those who go by this title are those who having practised some skills, have chosen to pass those skills on to others who come to learn them. Without learners, one would be pretty pretentious to walk around calling oneself "Sensei". It is the same with our Chivalric ranking system here in the TotJO. There are of course other ways of upholding the Knightly virtues than just teaching others, yet it remains that acquiring rank demonstrates the cultivation of some principles, characteristics and qualities that do not necessarily come very easily.

If being a Jedi is about 'being in touch with the Force', and 'being in touch with the Force' is recognising and accepting things as they are, then to the degree to which we can shake out/off the images of how we think that things should be, what we think we know, what is good and bad, and above all perhaps who is better than whom, then the "mastery" of the qualities of a Jedi Knight have more to do with becoming more authentic even than the symbols used to talk about them - including the rank.

Like RyuJin said also, the Jedi Knight leads by example, not by command ... thus, rank merely shows one who has learnt what one needs to in order to be able to be an example to others - not to lord it over them. We are a religious order, not a military unit.

Does that help ?

As with anything else, Rank becomes what ever the individual decides it to be. Some will see it as a mark of authority or power, others as a responsibility or honor or any combination of the sort. For me, although I have no rank here I have had rank in other organizations, I try to have the rank reflect who I am an trying to be.