Rank

I have thought about this a lot recent and feel that many people see rank or the absence of rank as a reflection of who a person is. That in some ways people become somehow more because that bar under there name changes.
And less in some instances.
The structure of rank alone means something here.. A way to identify who has done what, but not necessarily a sign of knowing, understanding more and not a sign that people are in any way superior to others.

So what does your rank mean to you? Is it important? A symbol of who you are?
Do you become something more, better, just by that change of colour?
just curious

I love this topic.

My father was a martial arts instructor since I was six years old. He taught Kickboxing, japanese sword, and aikibujutsu (an older term for aikido). The specific systems that we used had rank but no belt color until the shift from white to black. The theory being that a color belt served only to announce your rank to the world and your skill should do that for you. That, and the fact that since every school in every system uses a different (and ever changing) belt system the colors have become rather meaningless even to serve that purpose, and the fact that colored belts weren't a part of martial arts until after WWII...sorry...back on topic...

My father tried to instill in his students a sense of self-worth that was not dependant on any material thing. No belt or trophy or plaque could define you, only you can do that. He even shied away from competition (though not completely) because he also wanted to teach them that the only person that they had to be better than was the person they were yesterday.

As far as rank here goes it seems to be more used to keep track of who has access to what on the site. It should also be an indicator of how in depth that person's training has been, but much like in martial arts, time and training aren't always going to be directly correlated to skill. There are always people skilled beyond their training and people less skilled than their training should indicate. That's why we can't judge people based on their rank or title in anything, only on their words and actions. Plus the training here after the IP can be varied (as my understanding of apprenticeships goes) and people take different things even from the same training so that indicator is really not a good indicator of skill in that regard either.

Now on to your actual questions. :laugh:

So what does your rank mean to you?

How much of the training here I've completed and posted in my journal.

Is it important?

Not really.

A symbol of who you are?

Most certainly not. Jedi is a part of who I am, but I don't identify with "novice" and I doubt that will change as I advance. It might be different at Knighthood, but we'll have to see that when the time comes.

Do you become something more, better, just by that change of colour?

Quite the opposite. The rank changes because I become something better. (the opening monogologue form Arrow is now going through my head. :laugh: )

Great topic. Thanks for posting it.

> So what does your rank mean to you?

It simply represents how far I've come. Not to show others how much progress I've made but as a personal reminder to myself.

> Is it important?

Not really. What you learn is important. A Jedi Knight isn't a Knight because he/she has an orange box that says so, a Knight is someone who is compassionate, understanding, honest, forgiving and accepting. It's not about what rank you are it's about what you learned and who you are inside.

> A symbol of who you are?

It can be a personal symbol, sure. For me it's a representation of how far I've come and how far I have to go. For others it could mean something else.

> Do you become something more, better, just by that change of colour?

No, I don't believe so. As I mentioned before, the color doesn't matter so much. It's about your values and your actions. Those are what define you, at least more so than a change of color. Change (bettering yourself) has to come from within.

Overall, I don't think ranks are good or bad, they're neutral. I think most people will agree that becoming an apprentice or a Knight is a great feeling, so it can be an awesome motivator. And yet, if you let it go to your head, that's not so good. Overall, I believe it comes down to the individual.

What I really like about this Temple is that everyone is treated equally and respectfully, regardless of rank, so everyone gets their voice heard which is really important. Also, I believe that everyone has something valuable to teach, regardless of whether they're a new member or a grandmaster.

Rank means very little, in fact it means so little that there is more value in it because of what a person believes about their rank than what the rank itself means.

You hit on a couple different things I resonate with... The idea that rank demonstrates what you have done and not what you have learned or what you've come to understand in your time at Temple is really profound. Ideally, rank should be a reflection of of one's development on their Jedi path, but many people have come to realize that that is not always the case. I suspect that this may have something to do with the Three Tenets. Everyone can gain knowledge, but how many Jedi here are growing wisdom? Furthermore, I don't think knowledge is an adequate shield against human error. We make mistakes: we speak in anger, act spitefully, slow to admit wrongdoing, behave selfishly at expense of others, etc. Knowledge alone cannot safeguard against human frailty therefore rank doesn't indicate that a better person is behind that profile.

I don't care about my rank. I haven't let rank stop me from doing what I set out to do and I won't start now. I just want to keep studying, learning, and serving the Temple as best as I can.

I think there is value to being able to demonstrate you put the work in. But that comes out in conversation as well.

We might be a bit disingenuous to say rank means nothing. None of us are handing in badges that we worked for. But it's not worth getting hung up on. Being hung up on how much of a Jedi I am because of rank gets in the way. But so does the posture that it means nothing.

I came to do the work, because I needed to learn and refine. True for many of us, I suspect. To find a master, I had to do a certain amount of work, and a rank came with it. Cool. If I ever get to teach here, I will have to do a lot more work. Cool. When I'm done, I will get a badge that lets newer people know I am certified to teach here. Useful.

I think the rank system has practical value. It doesn't assign any value to me, but it shows that I put the work in. Treating it as a guarantee would be a mistake. So would being so cynical as to suggest it means nothing.

Your rank will be as significant as you make it. So, go be an awesome Jedi. That's my goal.

Rank actually means a whole lot to me.

It means I have reached my goals (And have new goals to reach for)
It means I have have challenges to train for and overcome
It means I have duty of importance within the community
It means others will know if I can (Or can't) help them with questions in relations to that ranks job
It means I hold great responsibility to my team of similar rank
It means we are a working community sharing in the work load

Rank itself is a valuable tool in which a community can use to make the "Gears Tick" and "Wheels Turn"

It is the Ego that one inserts into the rank that makes a Jedi's Behavior acceptable or not. Not the rank itself.

I think rank is more about responsibility. Having the rank of knight shows you put the time in here, that you're willing to take some responsibility for the Temple, for the teaching and also for yourself.

I'm with Edan.

We are all born human. We all die human.

Rank is a duty.

Loved your response Goken, so, I quoted you, lol....

The specific systems that we used had rank but no belt color until the shift from white to black. The theory being that a color belt served only to announce your rank to the world and your skill should do that for you. That, and the fact that since every school in every system uses a different (and ever changing) belt system the colors have become rather meaningless even to serve that purpose, and the fact that colored belts weren't a part of martial arts until after WWII...sorry...back on topic...

For those who don't know...

The white belt was given to a new person because they are new/blank/unwritten/etc....

The belt became black through grime and sweat from practice...

The more "filthy" the belt, the more practice one had put in...

As "dirt" became to symbolize "poor"; dirt floor shack (no money), dirty kids (poor raising), dirty old man (poor morals), the dirty belt was frowned on in Western circles...

Colors became the thing...

They mean nothing.......

My father tried to instill in his students a sense of self-worth that was not dependant on any material thing. No belt or trophy or plaque could define you, only you can do that. He even shied away from competition (though not completely) because he also wanted to teach them that the only person that they had to be better than was the person they were yesterday.

Good man...

Agree completely....

There are always people skilled beyond their training and people less skilled than their training should indicate. That's why we can't judge people based on their rank or title in anything, only on their words and actions.

Amen...

Don't be surprised to find a un-knightly knight, its going to happen...

I used "knight" to symbolize any rank/title...

It is why I say, "Not all doctor's got 'A's..."

Some only do what is required, and some only "act right" when people are watching...

Keep watching, when they think no one is watching, you can catch them....

It's a symbol of my relationship to the temple. It can't, on its own, speak for who I am or my personal path. It can't properly represent as an end, what I've learned, what I know, or how I work. It is a very general idea that has only what power one chooses to put into it. And really, it tends to be the people who celebrate you with the rank who do that within their subjective perception toward you. One doesn't even need the jewelry to have gained that kind of confidence from people individually. However, within a system like this temple, using it is an indicator of where the person and the temple stand with each other as far as commitment to it and to everything the temple stands for, it gives everyone else an idea of how you feel and how the temple feels about your path.