"Punch in the nose" says Pope Francis...

The question of proportionality in response probably should only be considered if appropriate legal authority exists to conduct that response. What the Pope talked about is assault AFAIK and probably illegal - so in my eyes its real bad advice.

You don't 'have' to react. You decide to react and therefore should be responsible for that decision's consequences IMO.

I'd say don't let someones words control your emotions, its akin to being a slave. Sure it happens to everyone, reacting, but an uncontrolled response is an uninformed response, and in conflict they say knowledge is power. The 'orientate' phase of an OODA loop;

observe, orientate, decide, ACT!

Though OODA was designed for the 'procedurally dense' air combat environment, and might not be the best model for 'emotional then physical' conflict. Need to turn the tenet 'focus' into an acronym for this LOL, find - orientate - classify - understand - [strike]smack[/strike] share
:huh:
While street fighting is what.... perhaps OA, orientate & act based on a defend or attack assessment of self, based on pure survival instinct. Not very civilized but still a reality for other systems to devolve into go/nogo moments of staccato awareness.

Am I the only person that wants to be the first people to be punched in the face by a pope? I mean I have meet him ,but I didn't know...

Vesha wrote: Am I the only person that wants to be the first people to be punched in the face by a pope? I mean I have meet him ,but I didn't know...

jaja, he'll make you famous. that would be something.

I can only imagine. Hahah.

"Your popeship, it was an honor to be hit by you." *tear of blood drips from the right eye*

Connor L. wrote: [Isn't this, in a way, cultural relativism? And, a fallacy.
(Source: Cook, John 1978 "Cultural Relativism as an Ethnocentric Notion," in The Philosophy of Society)

I don't know about a fallacy, I'm not strong on them... But I fail to see how...

And what's wrong with the "relativity" of things?

Our understanding of life is relative...

]While it's appropriate to look at ethics vis a vis the culture they come from (Doctrinal source: 'Jedi Believe in the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion and over time.'), I wonder if there is any level of absolutism at all.

I don't understand....

If violence becomes an appropriate response, can Jedi condone that?
(Creed source: Where there is hatred I shall bring love;)

Could there be a violence without hatred? Can there be compassionate violence?

As was shown, yes actually, and there are tons of examples of violence without hatred...

Evidently, its even OK for a Pope, lol...

I'm using extreme examples...

Not necessarily appropriate responses in the eyes of a Jedi...

Again, my point is "a person's right of freedom, does not negate my right to feel/respond as I do"

As a Jedi, words should not bother me, I've trained it to be so... Even actions...

But, I am human first, without that, I wouldn't be a Jedi... And humans are fallible...

So, someone calls my mom a bad name and I punch them...

I'm sorry for it after the fact, and apologize, but does that mean that insult to my mother was OK?

It feel like, in these type of conversations sometimes, that like when in school, the second child always gets in trouble, the first one doesn't get in as much trouble...

OW

Suzy, was yelling really necessary?

Johnny pulled my hair!

That's no reason to yell like that. Johnny, stop it.

Why did Susie get a talking to? For her natural response?

It doesn't take away from Johnny's responsibility in the exchange, but yet the focus was on Suzy...

In conversations here in TOTJO, it has been said that the offence lies in the offended... Some does, I think, but it doesn't relieve the one doing the offending's responsibility in it too....

Maybe I'm not quite understanding. But, I interpret Emotion; yet Peace to mean that if I am trained as a Jedi, and somebody insulted my mother, I would not hit them because I would think before I reacted.

I would consider all the possible outcomes, and violence probably isn't the path I would take.

My question was not "Is it ok for the Pope", but rather "Is this something I could show to a young Jedi as an example of what to do, or what not to do?"

In your example, I would be teaching Suzie to stifle her natural response for one that is refined. That's what mindfulness is. Understanding the impulsive, and having the choice to use it or not in any situation.

I guess what I am saying is... People think cultural relativism is so important. But I can feel pretty good about condemning cultural violence. In the eyes of a terrorist, it may be perfectly moral to kill thousands for a God. I say screw that God who wants thousands dead. I would do anything to stop him/her. Is that lack of tolerance against Jedi belief?

Pretty neat topic folks

Tolerance is a virtue here- so what would it look like if you tolerated the intolerable?

It evens says here at the Temple that we uphold the Freedom of Speech. So I wonder then, if you put a limit on a 'freedom', is it free?

As an artist, while I believe all subject matter is open and fair game, I also KNOW there are crazy people out there who do not give two sh*ts about you or your "artistic endeavors". So while you are technically free by law, your knees may not be protected from a baseball-bat after your latest smear campaign. But then again, do you let intimidation stop you, or do you stand your ground?

If you punch me cause I insult your mother, does that make it okay for me to return the favor or call the cops? Big Boy? Snitch?

What would Yoda do? (...imagines tea time with Yoda and the Pope...)

In your example, I would be teaching Suzie to stifle her natural response for one that is refined. That's what mindfulness is. Understanding the impulsive, and having the choice to use it or not in any situation.

But nothing for Johnny?

And you proved my point...

You treat the symptom, not the cause?

You tell Suzy "life is tough, your reactions are uncalled for."?

Later, Betty, having figured out that only the cry against injustice is what is forbidden, she decides tripping Johnny is ok, and he falls and knocks over the desk, that's OK?

Tell Johnny to watch his step, "Betty tripped me!" Betty, keep your feet under your desk...

Betty's suspicion is confirmed...

Like johnny, it really wasn't meanness, more curiosity about "what happens if"...

I guess what I am saying is... People think cultural relativism is so important. But I can feel pretty good about condemning cultural violence. In the eyes of a terrorist, it may be perfectly moral to kill thousands for a God. I say screw that God who wants thousands dead. I would do anything to stop him/her. Is that lack of tolerance against Jedi belief?

"That god" doesn't want any thing, it is an idea...

Culture isn't only American, or Arab... South American or African...

Its also us Yanks and the Southerners... Illinoian and Floridian.. Shoot, Illinoian, and Wisconsin-onian..

They call water fountains bubblers... lol...

Its southern Illinois and Chicago...

Southern View/Jerome, where I work and live and the larger city of Springfield that surrounds us...

Its my family laughing off stuff, and another family being g too serious...

Its my sister and her beliefs seperate from mine...

Same parents, yet very different results....

Same state, different ideologies....

Same country different climates, different ethnicitys....

We here are the Jedi culture, and should act like it...

But, rather than punish the second person for their reaction, perhaps we should work on not letting the first offence happen....

Ok, Jestor.

J.K.Barter wrote: you punch me cause I insult your mother, does that make it okay for me to return the favor or call the cops? Big Boy? Snitch?

Oh no!

Lol...

You are free to react as you see fit, lol...

It is your right too...

Its wonderfu l, lol...

And my reaction, to your reaction, and your reaction to that, and mine again, and yours again....

All because someone thought it was their right in the first place...

Humans are so much fun... lol... So entertaining...