My Opinion. Jestor's Lie

Akkarin wrote: I feel like I've been saying it a lot recently but we have to get it out of our minds that it is the training which makes you a Jedi. It is not at all. If you follow the doctrine (and for administrative purposes complete the Oath + App) then in the eyes of TotJO you are a Jedi.

I've been reading along in this thread since it was opened and hesitated to comment because it seems to be quite an emotional discussion for some. So before I share my thoughts on this I want to point out that this is NOT meant as criticism on TOTJO or the lesson system or the teachers etc. My argument is based mainly on the (ficticious) lore of the Jedi and how "being a Jedi" is popularly viewed.

In the fiction, being a (full) Jedi basically means being a Jedi KNIGHT, not necessarily a "Master" or whatever, but a "Knight". Most people I've come across that identify themselves with the Jedi path or Jediism refer to themselves as Jedi Knights, not just as "plain and simple Jedi".

So therefore if I may respectfully inquire: If a person follows the doctrine and completes the Oath and Application as you stated above, then why do these people who are perhaps really serious about the Jedi Path and/or the TOTJO but don't undergo the IP or other training for whatever reason (time, language barrier etc.) have the possibilty to attain the rank of a "Jedi Knight"? I see a bit of a contradiction here but as I'm quite new here it might just be my personal misunderstanding of the TOTJO structure and doctrine....

I personally think if the rank of Jedi Knight was to be available to every dedicated member regardless of completing the IP and other training, probably everyone would be happy and those who were in previous posts here refered to as those "left out" could still consider themselves as full Jedi within the TOTJO environment. The higher ranks such as "Senior Knight" or "Master" could still be reserved for those who have undergone special training and teaching because I believe that these degrees are not part of the definition of what a Jedi is (in popular understanding). "Knight" however is (just my opinion of course).

Now, before all the Knights become angry with me for promoting something that some might view as "cheapening the Knighthood", let me state that I personally WANT to go through the IP (and hopefully eventually through an apprenticeship) because I think there is a lot to learn in the process. My thoughts and suggestions refer mainly to those who consider themselves devoted Jedi (Knights) but for whatever reason cannot or will not go through the training and apprenticeship procedure.

Ve-Lo-Zi wrote:

Akkarin wrote: I feel like I've been saying it a lot recently but we have to get it out of our minds that it is the training which makes you a Jedi. It is not at all. If you follow the doctrine (and for administrative purposes complete the Oath + App) then in the eyes of TotJO you are a Jedi.

I've been reading along in this thread since it was opened and hesitated to comment because it seems to be quite an emotional discussion for some. So before I share my thoughts on this I want to point out that this is NOT meant as criticism on TOTJO or the lesson system or the teachers etc. My argument is based mainly on the (ficticious) lore of the Jedi and how "being a Jedi" is popularly viewed.

In the fiction, being a (full) Jedi basically means being a Jedi KNIGHT, not necessarily a "Master" or whatever, but a "Knight". Most people I've come across that identify themselves with the Jedi path or Jediism refer to themselves as Jedi Knights, not just as "plain and simple Jedi".

So therefore if I may respectfully inquire: If a person follows the doctrine and completes the Oath and Application as you stated above, then why do these people who are perhaps really serious about the Jedi Path and/or the TOTJO but don't undergo the IP or other training for whatever reason (time, language barrier etc.) have the possibilty to attain the rank of a "Jedi Knight"? I see a bit of a contradiction here but as I'm quite new here it might just be my personal misunderstanding of the TOTJO structure and doctrine....

I personally think if the rank of Jedi Knight was to be available to every dedicated member regardless of completing the IP and other training, probably everyone would be happy and those who were in previous posts here refered to as those "left out" could still consider themselves as full Jedi within the TOTJO environment. The higher ranks such as "Senior Knight" or "Master" could still be reserved for those who have undergone special training and teaching because I believe that these degrees are not part of the definition of what a Jedi is (in popular understanding). "Knight" however is (just my opinion of course).

Now, before all the Knights become angry with me for promoting something that some might view as "cheapening the Knighthood", let me state that I personally WANT to go through the IP (and hopefully eventually through an apprenticeship) because I think there is a lot to learn in the process. My thoughts and suggestions refer mainly to those who consider themselves devoted Jedi (Knights) but for whatever reason cannot or will not go through the training and apprenticeship procedure.

More to come on this topic, but....

Call yourself what you like away from totjo, noone can stop you...

But, to have credibility, (which might be seen as lacking right now to some, but we are young), we have to draw lines somewhere....

Some sites wont even let you call yourself a Jedi without completing their training...

Jedi Knight Certificate - $9.99

Universal Life Church Monastery

http://www.themonastery.org/catalog/jediknightcertificate-p-237.html

:dry:

Br. John wrote: Jedi Knight Certificate - $9.99

Universal Life Church Monastery

http://www.themonastery.org/catalog/jediknightcertificate-p-237.html

No disrespect intended, but I specifically did NOT mean it in that way. I was talking about someone who really feels an inner commitment to the Jedi Path, not someone who simply wants to buy some certificate to frame and show off with. I know you can buy almost any certificate for anything online.... But I knew (and feared) my post might be interpreted as if I meant that. So I repeat: "Selling out" the Jedi Knighthood was certainly NOT what I meant.

EDIT: For an example of what I mean, someone might be working in a hospital dedicating his life as a service to others. He may not have the time (or the intellectual capacity) to undergo the full training. But still, wouldn't he be someone truly being the way a Jedi Knight is expected to be? So, to say it again: I did not say, everyone should just "get" the Knighthood just like that. I was merely questioning if the training procedure should be the ONLY possible way to be recognised as Knight within TOTJO.....

In responded to Ve's last post (again I wish I could quote but I'm on mobile and its difficult), like anything else in life, you get out of something what you put into it. If members are serious about their path, yet are unable to undergo the training (hypothetically) why aren't they? Time constraints? I dont think their is a time limit in apprenticeships, and if so its not unreasonable. It all comes down to dedication. The system put into place is their for a very good reason, it provides a method for members to express their dedication. Granting someone the rank and status of Knight, without having to work hard for it, in my opinion is simply absurd.

In responce to some if the opinions expressed in regards to their not being enough material floating around for anyone below the apprentice level, again absurd. There is a wealth of material in the library (something I usually bring up when welcoming new guests) not to mention the information in the forums. Anyone griping or even making the comment that there isn't enough, either hasn't been here very long, it hasn't taken the time to go digging. Granted some of the good stuff gets "archived" now and then, but I'm assuming that's an issue with storage...

Ve-Lo-Zi wrote:

Br. John wrote: Jedi Knight Certificate - $9.99

Universal Life Church Monastery

http://www.themonastery.org/catalog/jediknightcertificate-p-237.html

No disrespect intended, but I specifically did NOT mean it in that way. I was talking about someone who really feels an inner commitment to the Jedi Path, not someone who simply wants to buy some certificate to frame and show off with. I know you can buy almost any certificate for anything online.... But I knew (and feared) my post might be interpreted as if I meant that. So I repeat: "Selling out" the Jedi Knighthood was certainly NOT what I meant.

Right, but others read this...

We have an audience to answer and pre-empt sometimes, lol...

EDIT: For an example of what I mean, someone might be working in a hospital dedicating his life as a service to others. He may not have the time (or the intellectual capacity) to undergo the full training. But still, wouldn't he be someone truly being the way a Jedi Knight is expected to be? So, to say it again: I did not say, everyone should just "get" the Knighthood just like that. I was merely questioning if the training procedure should be the ONLY possible way to be recognised as Knight within TOTJO.....

Well, this is something that may be taken into consideration down the road, but proof would be required...

We do not have the ability at this time to do that...

At another site I belong to, proof of 'accomplishments' were required... Such as you say you are a martial arts student? get a note from your instructor...

With the internet being what it is, ULC probably sells certs for that too... lol...

But, we are not set up for it at this time...

Again, anyone can call themselves a Jedi, a Jedi Knight, King of the Worm People, it donest matter... Have at it...

But, someone, somewhere will go, "Well what gives you the right to say that?" answer might be TOTJO, "Well, heck, anyone can go there and earn that", that is right, please join, and begin the process...

We exclude no one...

No one willing to 'do the work'....

Right now, as I said, we can only account for totjo teachings...

I have had this in my phone for a bit, excuse any old reference, like the christianity stuff, lol...

Christianity started as one main focus....

As it gets further divided, further defined, by things such as women's rights, or gay marriage, it splinters...

Such as we will...

Ren, Scott, I fail to see it still...

We have (most of us) all faced many internal demons and dragons, and have faced "the darkness" as we see it...

Because we don't have specific teachings called "dark" teachings, we automatically are light?

Bull...

You two are pretty good guys, like myself and so many others....

Call it "shadow", "light", "dark"...

Ren, you a "Ren shade of grey" darker than Mother Theresa, Lighter than the Emperor...

I am a "jestor shade of grey" slightly darker than a whitefaced clown, and lighter than a coal miner's butthole... (wait, wut?)

+++++++++++
Khaos, *sigh*, lol....

We can agree on mayonnaise, and what it is... although maybe not taste.....

If mayonnaise was sentient, it may not want to be called mayonnaise, and prefer a new name....

Who are we to tell another sentient being how to define itself?

Mayonnaise isn't sentient, but I am...

You can take your definitions of me, roll it up into a nice, tight little roll, and then, smoke it...

Cause, as a sentient being, I





how you define me...

As you don't care about my opinion of you, lol....

Feel free to label me all you want...

Hopefully im never tested,but, if I am, lets hope for the sake of whoever pushes that button of mine, you are right... Internet access is limited in jail, and I don't want to miss these conversations...

lol...

++++++++++++++++++++
As has been said, there is no 'set training' or secrets awaiting anyone...

My lessons, for my apprentices, are jut stuff I think is important....

Mostly, we just chat, and when I think of a lesson, I ask for it...

There is no time frame, no right or wrong...

Everything we offer is available all over the internet, your local library, or, your local guru, lol...

Br. John teaches stuff I dont, and Phortis and Akkarin, teach stuff I dont even understand, lol...

But, in the end, we still understand the point of it all, and that (to me) is to help people make themselves better...

Not how I think they would be better, but how they think they would be better...

Plus, what any apprentice and I have done, may not be what you need, want or like...

With some cookie recipes thrown in for good measure...

Editing a post for major content is very confusing. People have already replied to the original post and many won't see the edit. Edits are for correcting spelling, grammar or broken links.

It's possible for someone to be extraordinarily awarded the rank of Knight or any other rank. There's no established guidelines for it but it's not impossible. If the college of knights and The Council felt it was warranted and the right thing to do it could be done.

Br. John wrote: Editing a post for major content is very confusing. People have already replied to the original post and many won't see the edit. Edits are for correcting spelling, grammar or broken links.

Did I miss something?

It's possible for someone to be extraordinarily awarded the rank of Knight or any other rank. There's no established guidelines for it but it's not impossible. If the college of knights and The Council felt it was warranted and the right thing to do it could be done.

Correct....

But, we have not had a real need for this, and anyone really interested, will jump at the chance to further their own knowledge, like through our IP...