My Opinion. Jestor's Lie

Mortose wrote:

Jon wrote:
Because it is the membership which defines Jedi and not the other way around.

Then "Jedi" could become anything...
Should there not be at least some solid structure?

Lol, Christianity has been around for well over 1000 years and they don't have a solid structure yet. Why should we be expected to after just a few short years. I imagine that is something that will develop naturally over time. If we try to "define" what being a Jedi is right now in this moment, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot. We still have too much to learn.

Note: I noticed Akkarin said something similar. I posted this before reading through the whole thread. Also, forgive the multiple postings. I'm on my phone so it's just easier this way.

steamboat28 wrote:

Br. John wrote: The vast majority of our teaching and training is only available after one becomes an apprentice.

I love ya, Br. John, but I feel like that is a slight to those that aren't looking for a Knighthood, but just a place to belong. Yeah, your apprenticeships are open to everyone with the time and inclination to go through the IP, but some people aren't after that here, and if all the stuff that makes Jediism what it is stands behind locked doors, then we're an initiatory religion, and we either need to start charging like Scientology or showing people the door because they aren't serious enough.

Otherwise, at least a bit of basic doctrinal teaching (not list-making) needs to be accessible to the membership at large, and to the public so it can't be said we hide our teachings.

Huh, so the teachings are hidden? Like as in the sermons and live services which are available to everyone?

I see nothing secritive and insidious about making teachings available to those who choose to become Jedi within this temple. If someone chooses to be a Jedi in their own way without committing to this temple then they have the sermons and other sites/books/whatever they can learn from in their own time and their own way.

Ive been with totjo for a few days shy of a year now and I find it really interesting that there seems to be a cycle of people complaining about the definitions and the doctrine etc. it happens every now and then, same arguments, same complaints and accusations. Though Im curious about the current trend for it....

TOTJO isnt the definitive guide to Jediism. Its a branch of it. If you dont like it, then go somewhere else or start your own. You dont keep going to dinner at someones house, eat their food then complain endlessly that it wasnt quite want you wanted.

As for the complaint about the "training" being unavailable to those who do not seek knighthood. Why do you want to undergo the training if youre not interested in what it eventuates in? Not having access to an apprenticeship does not exclude you from having a place to belong. Its not a case of being judged "not serious enough" its a case of YOU CHOOSING not to undergo an apprenticeship. Would you walk into a Catholic church and complain that the training of a bishop is being denied you and its a slight?

I think people are getting totally sucked in to the role playing dark vs light thing and defining themselves based on which side of the spectrum they think looks coolest.. Yes, the doctrine is about balance and compassion etc, but that doesn't mean anyone runs around being a goodie two shoes and waving their magic positivity wand while riding a unicorn. And frankly, I think that the majority of people, both here and in general, are far too well versed in accessing the darker side of themselves. Striving for the opposite helps bring things into balance, because we ARE human, we cannot be all "light" and we do tend to veer to far towards the other side.

I think its important to note that Jediism IS in its infancy. You cannot expect it to be as well formed as any other religion or philosophy. If the whole thing popped out the ground fully formed, then we would be scientology. Instead its been evolving and forming due to the incredible hard work and diligence of a number of people and the council who does the best it can with the resources it has, something that seems to be taken for granted. If you can do better, then why dont you.

The Doctrine is there to be explored and embodied. Not taught.

Although I agree with much of what you say I have to disagree with the sarcasm versed to those who are at least trying to find themselves in these spectral aspects and at best are finding answers there. This is no less or more role playing than TOTJO itself.

Jon wrote: Although I agree with much of what you say I have to disagree with the sarcasm versed to those who are at least trying to find themselves in these spectral aspects and at best are finding answers there. This is no less or more role playing than TOTJO itself.

I disagree. The genuine investigation of how ones "spectral aspects" form themselves is not what I would consider role playing in the way that I mean it here, for all that the Temple bears a role play resemblance. My post is not aimed at those whose search for answers is driven by a genuine desire to learn.

Though I suppose if taken from the perspective that our attachment to the labels of dark or light is little more than our egos indulging in role play, then yes. I would have to admit that you're right.

I don't mean to call out Alethea but I had talked to her about what a Jedi is in the past (in the eyes of TotJO) and she would appears to have forgotten because she has repeated what she said before:

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/106115-here-s-my-issue?start=10#136436

As far as I understand it, you are not full fledged members unless you've gotten past the IP, no?

steamboat28 wrote: and if all the stuff that makes Jediism what it is stands behind locked doors, then we're an initiatory religion, and we either need to start charging like Scientology or showing people the door because they aren't serious enough.

I feel like I've been saying it a lot recently but we have to get it out of our minds that it is the training which makes you a Jedi. It is not at all. If you follow the doctrine (and for administrative purposes complete the Oath + App) then in the eyes of TotJO you are a Jedi.

The training further expands your understanding of the doctrine and how it might apply to your's and another's life.

I have been contemplating such issues as what makes Jediism recently and I think I am going to write something about it, because this is fairly important and misunderstood.

The OP makes a point. totjo's teachings are definitely classic light side stuff and deviance is frowned upon. I've been wanting to do something about the shadow for years but never got around to it.

Naya wrote: Lol, Christianity has been around for well over 1000 years and they don't have a solid structure yet.

Actually, Christianity has a pretty solid belief structure (in that it's internally consistent), and if you take each sect independently (which is important here, because ostensibly TotJO is a sect of Jediism), they become even more consistent and "solid." So that's not really a good comparison, actually.

Naya wrote: If someone chooses to be a Jedi in their own way without committing to this temple then they have the sermons and other sites/books/whatever they can learn from in their own time and their own way.

...and that doesn't bother you in any way, that people who may not want the oaths or ranks just get left completely out in the cold to scavenge the remnants of a field the apprentices pick clean?

steamboat28 wrote: ...and that doesn't bother you in any way, that people who may not want the oaths or ranks just get left completely out in the cold to scavenge the remnants of a field the apprentices pick clean?

Does it really feel like it's all been 'picked clean'? If someone wants to start a discussion then they can start one on anything.

I should think much of this thread has remained unread/unwatched: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/66052-from-a-corner-of-the-library?limitstart=0&start=70

Want to know good philosophical films to watch? etc, then ask people.