Guns in America

Doogle wrote: "What the media reports and what is fact are two different things" - messed up the quote feature
So you are saying that those people weren't mentally ill? The guns they hade just made them feel like such a red blooded American they had to go out and shoot other Americans? It is obvious you are trying to avoid the point that the root cause of these shootings are not guns. The root cause is obviously the mental health of the person in question. There was a man in China who tried to go on a mass killing spree with knives should we outlaw those too? If they didn't have guns they'd make a bomb or something. The focus of efforts and legislation should be on responsible not limited gun use and a better idea of how to help mentally unstable people in this country.

you could say this another way by asking "do you mean to suggest that people who go on rampages of mass murder are mentally HEALTHY?"

when it comes to other forms of gun related crime, such as robbery for instance, mental health becomes less direct of a factor

but each should be addressed separately, robbery segue into a discussion of education, social resources, and economic opportunity ; if you want to get REALLY radical we could talk about "the unequal distribution of wealth" or "economic oppression of the proletarian class" but i dont think its necessary

any way, in every instance what we will eventually get to is this:

1) guns make it much easier to kill people, and the more guns that are available, the more the people who want to kill people will get and use guns (to kill people)

2) it is the people that want to kill people who kill people, and until you can convince people NOT to kill people, having a gun will give you a better chance of protecting yourself and those around you from the people who want to kill people

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EDIT

and also, in america, our national identity began with a revolt against the ruling government
and
our original constitution was drafted by men who realized that governments, by their nature, are prone to corruption and abuse of power
and
the populace, if it wants to remain free of direct oppression, must have means of protecting itself from the government once that corruption and abuse grows beyond a certain limit
and
to do this, it must be armed
(it ALSO must be educated and informed and active in social and political discourse, but that is another conversation)

MadHatter wrote: Oh you mean like the video you posted as if its fact yet it cites NOTHING?

The video was only meant to be discussion starter not an end-all, be-all proof that we need to do away with guns.

MadHatter wrote: But here we go as these are the most recent states we can find as of 2013 2,596,993 people died (CDC death stats http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm) and according to the FBI 14,196 were murdered that year. ( FBI crime stats. https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/violent-crime/murder-topic-page/murdermain_final)

Correlation does not equal causation. Neither of these sources support what you said nor do they suggest that the accessibility of guns would have prevented them. It also does not say (at least from what I could see) how many of those deaths involved guns.

MadHatter wrote: So let us pretend ALL murders that year are from guns even though we know they are not 14,196/2,596,993 is 0.0054 or 0.5 or lets say 0.6 percent of ALL deaths. So please tell me again how dangerous guns are? Compare this to the 611,105 people that died that same year of heart disease which is 23% of all deaths yet I see no call to ban you from having that pizza or cheeseburger.

Non sequitur, again you cannot invent scenarios to prove your point. Scenarios are not evidence.

Personally, I see Jamie's idea of gun control (ban, turn over guns, or go to jail) to be very opposed to Jediism. Seems to me that Jediism is probably closer to libertarianism than fascism.

Ousan Ka wrote: Personally, I see Jamie's idea of gun control (ban, turn over guns, or go to jail) to be very opposed to Jediism. Seems to me that Jediism is probably closer to libertarianism than fascism.

I always found that interesting about TOTJO. The vast majority of people I have seen here are either alright with guns (even the non-US members), and those that have misgivings about them at least don't make a big deal about it. At the same time, the climate here is pretty socially liberal, with as many gay members as there are and whatnot.

Ok Jamie I am literally done with you because you refuse any facts put forward. You asked me how I got that firearms are less then 1% of all deaths. I proved my point with facts from the FBI and CDC. Then you spout something about how this doesnt prove my point. The numbers DO NOT LIE. Firearms are responsible for less then 1% of all deaths in the US while fast food and a lazy life are responsible fore 23%. So sitting on your couch with a big mac is more likely to kill you then a person owning a gun.

It is down right laughable that you in one breath claim that "Oh I dont own guns and nothing happened to me so you dont need them" then in the next say how bad they are and thus we need to ban them. It doesnt work both ways. You refuse all reason and fact and thus this conversation is over unless you want to actually do anything other then emotionalist burden shifting. You demand proof from others but offer nothing but stories and fear based foolishness yourself.

MadHatter wrote: Ok Jamie I am literally done with you because you refuse any facts put forward. You asked me how I got that firearms are less then 1% of all deaths. I proved my point with facts from the FBI and CDC. Then you spout something about how this doesnt prove my point. The numbers DO NOT LIE. Firearms are responsible for less then 1% of all deaths in the US while fast food and a lazy life are responsible fore 23%. So sitting on your couch with a big mac is more likely to kill you then a person owning a gun.

It is down right laughable that you in one breath claim that "Oh I dont own guns and nothing happened to me so you dont need them" then in the next say how bad they are and thus we need to ban them. It doesnt work both ways. You refuse all reason and fact and thus this conversation is over unless you want to actually do anything other then emotionalist burden shifting. You demand proof from others but offer nothing but stories and fear based foolishness yourself.

Non sequitur.

TROLOLOLOLO

Just kidding. You pretty much summed it up. This thread reminded me to buy an NRA membership this morning.

As Obi Wan once said "only a Sith deals in absolutes..."

MadHatter wrote: Ok Jamie I am literally done with you because you refuse any facts put forward. You asked me how I got that firearms are less then 1% of all deaths. I proved my point with facts from the FBI and CDC. Then you spout something about how this doesnt prove my point. The numbers DO NOT LIE..

But that's not what your data shows, plus if you bothered to read the links I put up you would see I did put forward some evidence.

Most of what I have done is poked holes in your logic because no matter how popular, no matter how many emotional appeals you make that doesn't make what you say true.

Just because I am the type that hates to give up easily:

Murders 2012: 14,827 (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/violent-crime/murder)

Deaths 2012: 2,543,279 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_09.pdf)

Leading cause of Death 2013: Heart Disease 611,105: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm

Numbers not much changed still 0.6% caused by guns and 23% caused by heart disease.

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Murders 2011: 14,612 (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/murder)

Deaths 2011: 2,515,458 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_03.pdf)

Leading cause STILL heart disease with little change in numbers.

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Murders 2010: 14,748 (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/murdermain)

Deaths 2010: 2,468,435 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf)

Leading cause STILL heart disease and AGAIN little change in the numbers.

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So I have factually prove for four years going back that gun deaths are less then 1% of deaths in the US and that a big mac and laziness is FAR FAR more likely to kill you. How much more do I need to go back?

Further you said you would rather die then kill someone well how about the family in Cheshire connecticut who had a home invasion using a bat and a kitchen knife. The women were raped and then the house burned down around them while they were still alive. The youngest of them was only 11! So you are saying its better that these people were disarmed then having a fighting chance? Because we saw what them being unarmed resulted in. Would you rather allow that to happen to people you love then take a life? Because I would go out fighting with anything and everything I had rather then suffer that fate but you would say that you have the right to demand I cant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders

Jamie Stick wrote:

MadHatter wrote: Ok Jamie I am literally done with you because you refuse any facts put forward. You asked me how I got that firearms are less then 1% of all deaths. I proved my point with facts from the FBI and CDC. Then you spout something about how this doesnt prove my point. The numbers DO NOT LIE..

But that's not what your data shows, plus if you bothered to read the links I put up you would see I did put forward some evidence.

Most of what I have done is poked holes in your logic because no matter how popular, no matter how many emotional appeals you make that doesn't make what you say true.

Oh it doesnt? Then please prove to me what it shows. The murder rate is x the death rate is y if we assume ALL murder was done by guns even though it wasnt we get the percentage of deaths caused by murder. Im sorry but that is exactly what it shows. The only emoitionalist here is YOU. I have shown that firearms cause less then 1% of deaths in the US using non biased sources. You however fear bits of wood and metal that are less likely to be the cause of harm then fast food. You post news sites and anti gun rags as if they have any basis in fact. Im sorry but you are the one refusing any logic and most of the people in this thread can see it.