Guns in America

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Ousan Ka wrote: I think people have to understand that if you want to enjoy freedom there are risks involved.

there are many reasons and many factors - one that i think is relevant here (but not always) is a sort of victim mindset - some people feel like victims and then are mean and angry, and also weak, but rather than find ways to strenghten themself, they demand that the world be made safe, which of course it never will be

Yes, there is a huge victim mentality going on in society these days. Everyone is a victim because of their race,ethnicity, sexual orientation, economic standing.....ect. In other words if you perceive yourself as different from the average person you're automatically a victim of something.

It used to be in the US that if there was a violent threat in the US that instead of cowering they'd fight back but now we want to disarm the real victims meanwhile the criminals are armed better than the cops. Bottom line is that if people had armed security or conceal and carry we'd see less of this happening and when it did there would be much less loss of life.

People don't seem to notice that they guys look for the softest target they can find.

CryojenX wrote:

Ousan Ka wrote: Also, like I said if you pay attention to the news every one of these guys that do these mass shootings end up having a mental health issue. It's more about keeping the guns out of the mentally ill people's hands than it is about "guns are bad".

One of the problems with keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is the ever-expanding definition of what constitutes mental illness these days. With no real understandable underlying mechanism for what constitutes the basis of a label of "mental illness", it is far to easy to slowly pathologize political viewpoints, and therefore brand those who do not agree with some aspect of the system as mentally ill. Often mental illnesses are created from whole cloth from normal human behaviors and emotions.

http://www.livescience.com/34496-psychiatric-manual-stirs-controversy.html

It's a common tactic of almost every political system to ascribe a mental illness to the opposition in order to discredit and them and invalidate their beliefs. Thank you for making this point.

As an Australian we are often held as the poster child for gun control. They say the introduction of strict laws saw massive drops in firearm homicide, that we haven’t suffered mass shooting since and that the buy backs had a significant effect. I really wish this was the case and that is was so easy but sadly it is not.

The Australian Government’s statistics on homicide can be found at this link http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide/weapon.html. The strict laws were introduced at the end of 1996. As you can see there is no massive drop. We simply continued to follow the same trend of general decline. Since the laws introduction we have had several mass shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mass_murders. A study of the effects of the buyback can be read at https://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/working_paper_series/wp2008n17.pdf. The last sentence of the conclusion was:

“Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears, the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.”

If one can put aside emotion and political rhetoric, then the fact the laws haven’t had a huge impact is no big surprise. Any law or regulation can only do so much. For example, we have outlawed narcotics and spent billions enforcing it but they are still very much a part of our society.

The failure of the buyback to produce any tangible benefit is no surprise either. They removed guns and if guns were the problem then it would have worked.

Something else to consider is there is a lot of rural areas in the United States. Protecting your livestock from predator animals is essential. Though the thought of me running out with one of my Katana to protect my goats, or critters from the bears, coyote, cougars, bobcats, even small creatures like raccoons etc will wipe out my chickens sounds pretty entertaining and would make a hilarious youtube video it would not be practical.

Also the 911 police response time in rural areas for a crime response can be 20-30 minutes. That is a long time to wait for help when you are being attacked.

Guns are a tool, just like any tool especially power tools, you need to be taught how to safely use them.

Now I may be biased a little, I am a military range safet instructor and teach sniper school, but I do feel that when I come home and talk with the "locals" there is a huge need for gun/hunter safety training for the general populous. So I volunteer to teach the youth up in the mountains here gun safety classes especial proper muzzle control and , which just makes me cringe because I see it all the time.

Education is a need for safe weapon use. Just like any potentially dangerous job/tool.

Karn wrote: Something else to consider is there is a lot of rural areas in the United States. Protecting your livestock from predator animals is essential. Though the thought of me running out with one of my Katana to protect my goats, or critters from the bears, coyote, cougars, bobcats, even small creatures like raccoons etc will wipe out my chickens sounds pretty entertaining and would make a hilarious youtube video it would not be practical.

Also the 911 police response time in rural areas for a crime response can be 20-30 minutes. That is a long time to wait for help when you are being attacked.

Guns are a tool, just like any tool especially power tools, you need to be taught how to safely use them.

Now I may be biased a little, I am a military range safet instructor and teach sniper school, but I do feel that when I come home and talk with the "locals" there is a huge need for gun/hunter safety training for the general populous. So I volunteer to teach the youth up in the mountains here gun safety classes especial proper muzzle control and , which just makes me cringe because I see it all the time.

Education is a need for safe weapon use. Just like any potentially dangerous job/tool.

Yes, I grew up in Northern MN which is very rural. The town nearest to me was about 10 miles away, getting a cop out there would take nearly an hour given there are 2 cops in that town and the county sheriff is about in another town probably another 20 miles past the nearest town.

There are sometimes issues with wolves and livestock and there have been several cases of home invasions in rural areas in Northern MN due to the fact that the criminals know it will take quite a while before anyone outside would notice and if they did it could be an hour before police were there.

The thing that drives me nuts is the only people for gun control seem to be the people in the city who never used a gun or in all likelihood never seen a gun. They are all too happy to take rights away from the 99% of people who use guns for self defense or sport only just so that 1% can't have them. It simply makes no sense to me to take away a right that the vast majority of the time is being used for good purposes.

It is funny that all you see about guns on the news is the when they are used in a crime but nothing about the millions of people who just enjoy hunting or plinking targets, which is probably the 90%+ of the people who own guns.

Ousan Ka wrote:
So, when every media outlet reports that these guys have mental problems they are lying or wrong huh?

EVERY? Did you read every report? Did you read every account?

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1184918_543273705728208_181492179_n.jpg?oh=0d1f1f5031a2c25e62b3f0ad119da7b9&oe=56D2BC31

CryojenX wrote: One of the problems with keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is the ever-expanding definition of what constitutes mental illness these days. With no real understandable underlying mechanism for what constitutes the basis of a label of "mental illness", it is far to easy to slowly pathologize political viewpoints, and therefore brand those who do not agree with some aspect of the system as mentally ill. Often mental illnesses are created from whole cloth from normal human behaviors and emotions.
http://www.livescience.com/34496-psychiatric-manual-stirs-controversy.html

this is very good point and one i want to highlight before continuing into the next part of my post

its actually pretty normal to have "mental illness" of some kind or another - for many reasons

the term is so broad that it is inappropriate to say "people with mental illnesses should/should not....." whatever

that being said, i did a google for "list of mass shootings" and heres some stuff that came up:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/02/us/03mass-shootings-timeline.html?_r=0

and

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/deadliest-mass-shootings-u-s-history-n437086

now i am going through the lists and paring the names of the shooters with the words "mental illness" or "mental health" in another google search and here are the results

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/19/virginia.tech.records/index.html
Seung-Hui Cho
"sent to the [mental] facility on a temporary detention order"

Chris Harper Mercer
"had long struggled with mental illness"
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-oregon-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

George Hennard
"had a history of mental instability"
http://www.vpc.org/studies/wgun911016.htm

James Huberty
"commented to his wife, Etna, that he suspected he may have a mental problem."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre

Jaylen Fryberg
no history of mental illness
http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-10-27/no-jaylen-fryberg-was-not-mentally-ill/

Patrick Henry Sherrill
"had worried he had inherited "serious mental problems" but saying he didn't need a "shrink" rebuffed a pastor's suggestion he seek psychiatric counseling"
http://newsok.com/article/2177416

Eric Harris
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html
"Harris was not merely a troubled kid, the psychiatrists say, he was a psychopath."
PSYCHIATRISTS - not newscasters; mental health professionals who understand the term and use it correctly
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/incompetence/201102/murder-most-foolish

Dylan Klebold
"A key aspect of Klebold's mental illness was severe depression and suicidal thoughts"
same article as above

Nidal Malik Hasan
implications of a dysfunctional personality but nothing solid enough to post which indicated previous mental illness

Elliot O. Rodger
"For as long as anyone close to them can remember, the parents had faced concerns about the boy’s mental health"
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/elliot-rodger-killings-in-california-followed-years-of-withdrawal.html

Ivan Lopez
"was being treated for depression and anxiety"
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/02/fort-hood-shooter-had-mental-health-problems/7237489/

Aaron Alexis
"Said he was hearing voices, he was detached from reality at certain points. He had sought treatment a number of times at a number of places"
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/navy-yard-suspect-aaron-alexis-sought-treatment-for-mental-issues/


John Zawahri
"was hospitalized for treatment after allegedly talking about harming someone"
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/08/us/california-college-gunman/

Adam Lanza
"mother was preparing to commit him to a psychiatric facility"
http://hollywoodlife.com/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-mental-health-afraid-committed-psychiatric-ward/

James Holmes
"The psychiatrist who treated James Holmes before he attacked a Colorado movie theater - he was having homicidal thoughts as often as three or four times a day"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/16/james-holmes-trial-psychiatrist-colorado-shooting-plan_n_7591512.html

Jiverly A. Wong
"an introvert who was secretive in the extreme, keeping his love of guns and target shooting — and even his marriage — hidden from his family" and "sent a two-page delusional rant to a Syracuse television station saying the police were spying on him, sneaking into his home and trying to get into car accidents with him.
he felt low and small,” said the sister"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/nyregion/12binghamton.html

Radcliffe F. Haughton
no documented mental illness that i found - he was reported to be angry and violent and his wife was very afraid of him

Andrew Engeldinger
"had shown signs of mental illness for years."
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2012/10/16/engeldinger_1

Wade Michael Page
"could not fit in. A girlfriend reportedly cheated on him with a band member, resulting in the band dismembering about a year ago. In early June 2012, a girlfriend reportedly broke up with him and he moved out of his residence with her. A friend described him as emotionally upset and hurt. He was fired from multiple jobs (e.g., truck driver, parts coordinator) over the years, once because he did not want to take direction from a female co-worker. He lost his house in February 2012 when the bank seized it after a foreclosure. "
http://blog.medfriendly.com/2012/08/a-psychological-profile-of-wade-michael.html

Scott Dekraai
"had bipolar disorder, a history of violence, wouldn't stay on treatment"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dj-jaffe/scott-dekraai-seal-beach-_b_1011672.html

---

there ar eplenty more if anyone else wants to pick this up - not every person who goes on a shooting rampage has a clearly established history of mentall illness and among those who do there are plenty of differences

but there are a lot of recurring themes

the risk is that if you say "people with mental illness do this" then you basically put a ton of people into a category they do not belong in - i myself can be said to have "a history of mental illness" but im not going on any shooting rampages, and this is true for the vast majority of people who count as "having a history of mental illness"

attempting to say "theres no connection between mental illness and violence" is absurd: yes there is an obvious connection

a huge percentage of the most violent people in society have demonstrable mental illness issues

but this is not to say that "people diagnosed with mental illnesses are dangerous" - it is to say that "people who are clearly dangerous often are or should be diagnosed as having some kind of mental illness"

Jamie Stick wrote:

Ousan Ka wrote:
So, when every media outlet reports that these guys have mental problems they are lying or wrong huh?

EVERY? Did you read every report? Did you read every account?

OK, so I watch Fox, ABC, CNN and MSNBC and they all say the same thing, but I can see you are one of those people who can't understand when people are being literal or generally speaking. Again, every news outlet I watch says these people have a record of mental illness.

I could link dozens of article from different sources saying the same thing but if you're curious you could easily just google it and see the thousands of stories about it. Now, the level of mental illness varies and in some of the cases it might not be a factor but almost all of the cases I've seen are people that have mental illness.

Ousan Ka wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote:

Ousan Ka wrote:
So, when every media outlet reports that these guys have mental problems they are lying or wrong huh?

EVERY? Did you read every report? Did you read every account?

OK, so I watch Fox, ABC, CNN and MSNBC and they all say the same thing, but I can see you are one of those people who can't understand when people are being literal or generally speaking. Again, every news outlet I watch says these people have a record of mental illness.

I could link dozens of article from different sources saying the same thing but if you're curious you could easily just google it and see the thousands of stories about it. Now, the level of mental illness varies and in some of the cases it might not be a factor but almost all of the cases I've seen are people that have mental illness.

So can I ( Article 1 ) ( Article 2 ) ( Article 3 ) ( Article 4 ), the problem is not a lack of sources but a quality of argument in those sources. Specifically, your source doesn't say much of anything in the way to support that mental illness is the source of all mass shootings nor does it support the idea that all gun crimes are gang-related.

I used to be a big gun fanatic. I loved guns and fantasized about owning a few special pieces, primarily for home defense, but after spending my time living in a community rocked almost every day by gun violence (in the city you aptly cited, Chicago) there was nothing left about guns that made me want one. I don't care what some dead people wrote a couple hundred years ago about owning guns: it was a very different time and I don't know if they would say the same thing today.

As Jedi, we are called to humility, but how can we claim humility and feel entitled to things? I ask this because that's what I feel like this boils down to, regardless of arguments: people, especially Americans, feel entitled to own and use guns. We are raised in society that believes guns are as harmless as chocolate eggs and blame everything (or everyone) else for the problems created by the guns we hand out like toys.