Guns in America

MadHatter wrote: Fine as you will refuse to see any other logic let me put it this way.
A) you are seeking to use FORCE against other people because you dont like what they own. This is wrong.

I'm not seeking to use any force. People should give up their guns or go to prison. Simple as that. No force necessary, unless of course a person with a gun decides they are above the law and resists; perhaps then force would be necessary.

MadHatter wrote: You will leave people at the mercy of criminals and this in my mind makes you morally culpable for what happens to them.

My relatives and I do not own guns and we have not been robbed or harmed because of it. I am outspoken anti-gun, anti-war, anti-militarization minister and yet nobody has come to my apartment and tried to rob/harm me.

Your argument is again a non sequitur: creating scenarios of fear does not constitute fact.

MadHatter wrote: You likely know as well as I do that LGBTQ people and Trans people especially are far far more likely to be victims of violence. What you are saying to these people (me and my boyfriend included) is so sad too bad better hope the cops can get to you or you are fast enough and have the ability to run away.

I would rather just let the attacker have their way with me than live with responsibility of having harmed another person. I'd rather combat this problem at the systemic level than introduce more variables of violence (i.e. guns).

MadHatter wrote: As I said you are trying to cripple peoples defensive ability for an issue that is less then 1% of all deaths.

Where are you get this percentage from? You keep using it like it's a known fact, but I have no idea where it's coming from.

Jamie Stick wrote:
I'm not seeking to use any force. People should give up their guns or go to prison. Simple as that. No force necessary, unless of course a person with a gun decides they are above the law and resists; perhaps then force would be necessary.

Yes yes arrest and detention is not force....... now thats funny. All laws are backed with the threat of force.

Jamie Stick wrote:
My relatives and I do not own guns and we have not been robbed or harmed because of it. I am outspoken anti-gun, anti-war, anti-militarization minister and yet nobody has come to my apartment and tried to rob/harm me.

Your argument is again a non sequitur: creating scenarios of fear does not constitute fact.

Oh so this NEVER EVER happens? Crime is nonexistent? Im sorry but I have PERSONALLY had an armed home invasion and have had four men try to jump me. So yes these things happen and you are saying I should be in the hospital or dead rather then able to defend myself.

Jamie Stick wrote:
I would rather just let the attacker have their way with me than live with responsibility of having harmed another person. I'd rather combat this problem at the systemic level than introduce more variables of violence (i.e. guns).

Oh and you have the right to force that view and opinion on the rest of us? Ill take the responsibility of killing someone over being murdered or watching a loved one suffer that fate. Further you cant prove that guns introduce more violence crime rates have declined as the years have gone on and yet gun ownership is either up or else little changed if you do some research.

Jamie Stick wrote:
Where are you get this percentage from? You keep using it like it's a known fact, but I have no idea where it's coming from.

Oh you mean like the video you posted as if its fact yet it cites NOTHING? But here we go as these are the most recent states we can find as of 2013 2,596,993 people died (CDC death stats http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm) and according to the FBI 14,196 were murdered that year. ( FBI crime stats. https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/violent-crime/murder-topic-page/murdermain_final)
So let us pretend ALL murders that year are from guns even though we know they are not 14,196/2,596,993 is 0.0054 or 0.5 or lets say 0.6 percent of ALL deaths. So please tell me again how dangerous guns are? Compare this to the 611,105 people that died that same year of heart disease which is 23% of all deaths yet I see no call to ban you from having that pizza or cheeseburger.

Then why not move, Jamie?

Because it's not fair to make you move, that's why. You want to see America a better place, I get that.

But let me put this in a prospective that perhaps you will be a little more understanding to. You're willing to let people violate you in order to ensure you don't hurt them. What about the following?

Florida Police Arrest Two Teens in Gang-Rape of Woman, Forcing Son to Participate
Published July 06, 2007 Associated Press

Two teenagers were accused of gang raping a woman and forcing her 12-year-old son to join in the attack, then beating him and pouring cleaning solution into his eyes.

Authorities allege Avion Lawson, 14, and Nathan Walker, 16, were among a group of about 10 masked suspects who forced their way into the woman's apartment in a crime-ridden housing project the night of June 18.

The two were being held without bail Friday on suspicion of armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators, sexual performance by a child, armed home invasion and aggravated battery. Both were arrested this week, but formal charges had not been filed.

"Any rape case is horrible but this takes it to another level, something you can't think of even in your worst dreams," police spokesman Ted White said.

According to the police report, a man knocked on the woman's door at about 9 p.m. and told her he had a flat tire. The mother and son, whom police have not identified, went outside and were ambushed by a group of gun-wielding suspects.

The victims told police they were forced back into their home and beaten and sexually assaulted. According to authorities, the men raped, sodomized and beat the woman, then forced her son to participate in the assault at gunpoint, making him have sex with his mother in front of them.

The boy was then beaten and had numerous household cleaning liquids poured into his eyes, according to the police report.

The suspects also stole a few hundred dollars worth of cash and jewelry, White said.

White said more arrests were pending, but he would not say if authorities had identified additional suspects. The teens in custody were not cooperating, but Lawson confessed to taking part in the attack, White said. Walker has denied involvement, White said.

DNA evidence in a condom found in the victims' home linked Lawson to the crime, police said. Investigators also say they found a palm print belonging to Walker at the scene.

The victims did not suffer life-threatening injuries and have been released from the hospital, White said.

"They're going through the county victim services for counseling," he said.

Lawson lived in Dunbar Village, the hardscrabble project where the attack occurred. Walker was apparently visiting a friend there, White said.

Authorities believe the suspects all knew each other from the neighborhood, but they don't think they knew the victims directly.

Prosecutors have 21 days from the time a suspect is arrested to formally file charges. Lawson was arrested Tuesday. Walker was arrested Thursday.

A call to Lawson's public defender was not immediately returned. It was not known if Walker has an attorney.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/07/06/florida-police-arrest-two-teens-in-gang-rape-woman-forcing-son-to-participate.html

Although there was a gun involved in this incident, the reality is, the teens didn't need the gun to perform these acts. It could have been done just as easily with a knife.

The problem isn't guns, it's people. Want the guns gone? Fix the people.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Fix the people.

Something religion has been trying to do since the dawn of time. Good luck! :dry:

Religion doesn't have science (psychology) to study people

Alethea Thompson wrote: Religion doesn't have science (psychology) to study people

No...But our governments do haha so far no luck

This whole thread got me thinking, so I looked it up- apparently this is TOTALLY a thing:
Mass Knifings

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Mass-knifings-rare-in-U-S-unlike-Asia-4422137.php

Alethea Thompson wrote: This whole thread got me thinking, so I looked it up- apparently this is TOTALLY a thing:
Mass Knifings

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Mass-knifings-rare-in-U-S-unlike-Asia-4422137.php

Oh yea it is. It's because we live in a weak social timeframe....people are afraid to get their hands dirty. So a guy with a knife? Yea....Easy targets and it happens all the time. Knives, hammers, people don't NEED guns to kill lots of people. Gun's are just the common tool in this age.

"What the media reports and what is fact are two different things" - messed up the quote feature
So you are saying that those people weren't mentally ill? The guns they hade just made them feel like such a red blooded American they had to go out and shoot other Americans? It is obvious you are trying to avoid the point that the root cause of these shootings are not guns. The root cause is obviously the mental health of the person in question. There was a man in China who tried to go on a mass killing spree with knives should we outlaw those too? If they didn't have guns they'd make a bomb or something. The focus of efforts and legislation should be on responsible not limited gun use and a better idea of how to help mentally unstable people in this country.