Guns in America

Ok first of all we are blaming an item for the actions of a person. Secondly we are claiming that some how violence will go down? Nope sorry violent crime has been going down with or without gun measures globally and further the crime rates do not change much after gun bans they just use different weapons.

Finally lets address the idea that we are not entitled to things. Ok Jamie you are not entitled to control of your body, your words, what you own, or basically anything else in your life. We now cede all that to a governmental body which you have NO say in electing. Would you like your reproductive rights given over to the republican party? How dare you try to argue against it you are showing entitlement. (Does that sound insane to you because that is the argument you are using) Im sorry but believing in liberty is not against the path of the Jedi but disarming people and leaving them helpless is.

MadHatter wrote:
Finally lets address the idea that we are not entitled to things. Ok Jamie you are not entitled to control of your body, your words, what you own, or basically anything else in your life. We now cede all that to a governmental body which you have NO say in electing. Would you like your reproductive rights given over to the republican party? How dare you try to argue against it you are showing entitlement. (Does that sound insane to you because that is the argument you are using) Im sorry but believing in liberty is not against the path of the Jedi but disarming people and leaving them helpless is.

Non sequitur. Asking people to give up their guns is not equivalent to giving up bodily autonomy.

Jamie Stick wrote:
Non sequitur. Asking people to give up their guns is not equivalent to giving up bodily autonomy.

So you can claim saying desiring the freedom to own an object is entitlement is NOT saying desire to own your body is also entitlement? If not then desiring free speech is not entitlement? What about freedom of travel or to choose where we work? Oh here is a good one. Heart disease kills many many more people then guns and is overwhelmingly linked to obesity and high cholesterol. Should we regulate your diet? Is that ok? I mean it saves lives right? Oh wait but you will say it doesnt harm innocent people or people other then the person eating badly right? Nope sorry it costs the medical system which costs the tax payer, it harms your family via medical bills, and further parents hurt their kids by letting them eat poorly. So should we regulate all of that away and make it the choice of the government?

Im sorry but your argument taken to the extreme can be used to regulate anything I wish. People having bodily autonomy is the cause of all death except old age. So why should we let them have it? I mean if we wish to save lives why not take away all freedom?

MadHatter wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote:
Non sequitur. Asking people to give up their guns is not equivalent to giving up bodily autonomy.

So you can claim saying desiring the freedom to own an object is entitlement is NOT saying desire to own your body is also entitlement?

Can I claim that wanting my body to be respected is a given whereas wanting a firearm is entitlement? Absolutely, they're worlds away.

MadHatter wrote: Im sorry but your argument taken to the extreme can be used to regulate anything I wish. People having bodily autonomy is the cause of all death except old age. So why should we let them have it? I mean if we wish to save lives why not take away all freedom?

That's why your argument is a non sequitur , you had to take several leaps to get to a place where you could even hint that what I was saying might be a problem and there's nothing to support you in between what I'm saying and what you just said.

Yet you failed to answer my fast food question. Again why should you be allowed to chose what you eat. Non-healthy diets kill more Americans then anything else.

Further no its not worlds away. Why is owning one thing entitlement but owning another is not? Who cares what that thing is. Why should you have any rights at all. You feel ENTITLED to own your body or have freedom of choice does that make you a bad Jedi? No because liberty is not outside of the teaching of the Jedi. And in fact your attempt to demonize an inanimate object is outside of the teachings. All Jedi used weapons for defense of self and others. But you would take that right from people.

Have you had to defend yourself ever? Have you ever been in a situation that was life threatening? Because I have. Let me explain something to you: If at 3am your door gets kicked in the first thing you will do is call the cops. Because they have GUNS. Where as I do not feel like putting my life in the hands of other people which is what you demand we do when you demand gun control. So if my life is in the hands of state enforcers why should your life not be the same. What aspects are under said control is just splitting hairs.

MadHatter wrote: Yet you failed to answer my fast food question. Again why should you be allowed to chose what you eat. Non-healthy diets kill more Americans then anything else.

Except that I'm not allowed to eat whatever I want. The FDA routinely bans foods that are deemed too much of a health risk and heavily regulates others.

MadHatter wrote: Further no its not worlds away. Why is owning one thing entitlement but owning another is not? Who cares what that thing is.

Because my body is intrinsic to my being, a gun is not.

Jamie Stick wrote: Except that I'm not allowed to eat whatever I want. The FDA routinely bans foods that are deemed too much of a health risk and heavily regulates others.

Except no one is taking those things away from you or banning you from owning them. Further those items are poison in and of themselves. A gun without action is not dangerous nor are the majority of guns ever going to harm anyone. Firearms are only 1% of all deaths in America that is NOT a number that constitutes an issue.

Jamie Stick wrote: Because my body is intrinsic to my being, a gun is not.

Again you are splitting hairs. You are saying one item is ok to control another is not. Why should you be allowed to alter your body or control your reproductive rights? Some people claim MILLIONS are killed by abortion why should you be afforded that right? ( I personally dont feel that way but still) Your argument is that SOME items its not an entitled mentality to control others items it IS. Im sorry but you cant do that. Either its all entitlement or its not. You feel ENTITLED to control your body. Many people say differently. Or let me put this another way as you seem strongly connected to trans issues. Why should my trans friend be ENTITLED to use the bathroom of her choosing? Where you pee is not intrinsic to your body, not any more then the right to own what you wish for self defense. But you would surely support the first and ignore the latter.

MadHatter wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote: Except that I'm not allowed to eat whatever I want. The FDA routinely bans foods that are deemed too much of a health risk and heavily regulates others.

Except no one is taking those things away from you or banning you from owning them.

That's exactly what the FDA does and no, not everything they ban is poison.

MadHatter wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote: Because my body is intrinsic to my being, a gun is not.

Again you are splitting hairs. You are saying one item is ok to control another is not.

Not even close to splitting hairs, splitting continents--galaxies perhaps... I was born with a body, I was not born with a gun. Are we done yet?

Fine as you will refuse to see any other logic let me put it this way.
A.) you are seeking to use FORCE against other people because you dont like what they own. This is wrong.
B.) You will leave people at the mercy of criminals and this in my mind makes you morally culpable for what happens to them.

You likely know as well as I do that LGBTQ people and Trans people especially are far far more likely to be victims of violence. What you are saying to these people (me and my boyfriend included) is so sad too bad better hope the cops can get to you or you are fast enough and have the ability to run away.
The cops at BEST have a 3 to 5 minute response time. Do you even know how long that is in a life and death situation? I do because Ive been there. Are you saying the that a tiny trans or gay person with asthma should be expected to just pray that they get help in time? Because guess what such a person CANT run and they are at a EXTREME physical disadvantage against one person let alone more then one.
So they should be forced to hope they can get out there phone, dial 911, connect to 911, and hope the cops arrive before they are beaten or murdered? Is that ok? As I said you are trying to cripple peoples defensive ability for an issue that is less then 1% of all deaths.
Dont spout pepper spray because A.) its not always instantly effective, B.) its not suited to more then two attackers at best, C.) the effects can be fought and harm still done if you use it, D.) it poses a risk of inhibiting the defender as well as the attacker.
So please tell me four people decide to come at me or my boyfriend with bats because they dont like gay men what should I be forced to do? I am short and not very fast so running not a gonna make it far against an average sized dude and no way will any OC spray you can carry handle that. So what I should be forced to dial 911 and pray? All because 1% of deaths are caused by firearms and those deaths do not exclude suicides or defensive uses. I should be a victim because YOU are uncomfortable with an object that does less harm then cheeseburgers?

MadHatter wrote: Fine as you will refuse to see any other logic let me put it this way.
A) you are seeking to use FORCE against other people because you dont like what they own. This is wrong.
You will leave people at the mercy of criminals and this in my mind makes you morally culpable for what happens to them.

You likely know as well as I do that LGBTQ people and Trans people especially are far far more likely to be victims of violence. What you are saying to these people (me and my boyfriend included) is so sad too bad better hope the cops can get to you or you are fast enough and have the ability to run away.
The cops at BEST have a 3 to 5 minute response time. Do you even know how long that is in a life and death situation? I do because Ive been there. Are you saying the that a tiny trans or gay person with asthma should be expected to just pray that they get help in time? Because guess what such a person CANT run and they are at a EXTREME physical disadvantage against one person let alone more then one.
So they should be forced to hope they can get out there phone, dial 911, connect to 911, and hope the cops arrive before they are beaten or murdered? Is that ok? As I said you are trying to cripple peoples defensive ability for an issue that is less then 1% of all deaths.
Dont spout pepper spray because A) its not always instantly effective, its not suited to more then two attackers at best, C) the effects can be fought and harm still done if you use it, D) it poses a risk of inhibiting the defender as well as the attacker. So please tell me four people decide to come at me or my boyfriend with bats because they dont like gay men what should I be forced to do? I am short and not very fast so running not a gonna make it far against an average sized dude and no way will any OC spray you can carry handle that. So what I should be forced to dial 911 and pray? All because 1% of deaths are caused by firearms and those deaths do not exclude suicides or defensive uses. I should be a victim because YOU are uncomfortable with an object that does less harm then cheeseburgers?

You being gay reminded me of a point that I wish to make on the side: people shouldn't stereotype American gun owners. Just about all of my friends are gun owners, and none of them are fat redneck racist Baptists. I myself am a vegetarian and college-educated. I knew a gay dude who kept a shotgun in his car, including on a college campus where it was forbidden, and I applaud him for it, because he knew what he was up against.