Apologies

Again, I totally disagree here. Self-discipline exhibits itself in many more ways than simply forcing oneself to listen to random people prattle on about random problems. Furthermore, you are not the final arbiter of "Jedi" behavior. I would take it as a personal kindness if you stopped policing the actions of others when you, yourself, are overstepping.

Who said anything about policing the actions of others. I am stating my own opinions and have never once said my word is law. You don't agree. Cool, I am not going to put hand cuffs on you and put you to jail. Seriously. Is this not a forum/thread/place where one is allowed to express their own opinions? My opinions on Jedi Behavior is mine, and it does not match up with his....or yours. If I have "Overstepped" I would appreciate it if a Mod/Admin were to inform me of such.
*bows*

Kitsu Tails wrote: Who said anything about policing the actions of others. I am stating my own opinions and have never once said my word is law.

Kitsu Tails wrote: > It's not. That is a Sith's way of thinking.
> Jedi are supposed to listen and care about others...Such is the teachings of Jedi.
> It shows that you lack self discipline...and are incapable of conducting your[self...] in a Jedi Like manner. Again, this is Sith behavior.
>Then you should be able to Improve your ability to be Socially acceptable to others.
> I can personally say that your behavior and personality leaves much to be desired.

I'm sorry. I must have totally and completely misinterpreted all of that. Apparently I was incorrect in assuming that you expected others to conform to your personal notions of the Jedi Path. I must've let the fact that your words actively attempted to correct Connor's behavior cloud my mind to what you were actually trying to say.

Would you care to try again?

steamboat28 wrote:

Kitsu Tails wrote: Who said anything about policing the actions of others. I am stating my own opinions and have never once said my word is law.

Kitsu Tails wrote: > It's not. That is a Sith's way of thinking.
> Jedi are supposed to listen and care about others...Such is the teachings of Jedi.
> It shows that you lack self discipline...and are incapable of conducting your[self...] in a Jedi Like manner. Again, this is Sith behavior.
>Then you should be able to Improve your ability to be Socially acceptable to others.
> I can personally say that your behavior and personality leaves much to be desired.

I'm sorry. I must have totally and completely misinterpreted all of that. Apparently I was incorrect in assuming that you expected others to conform to your personal notions of the Jedi Path. I must've let the fact that your words actively attempted to correct Connor's behavior cloud my mind to what you were actually trying to say.

Would you care to try again?

I see. I forgot, whenever interacting on a Jedi Forum, I have to spill out a ton of disclaimers in order to cater to the sensitivity of others. Please forgive my horrible misstake. Here. I'll fix.


> It's not. In my most humble opinion. In my own personal experience which may mean very little to others which is ok, because this is, of course, just my opinion. That is a Sith's way of thinking.
> Jedi are supposed to listen and care about others...Such is the teachings of Jedi. Again, this is just my own personal opinion and is to be taken with a grain of salt since I am just a lowly novice and hold no authority here
> Just reitterating the point that this is my own opinion. I was worried you might have missed that and felt the need to include it again. But, to me...this [strike]It[/strike] shows that you lack self discipline...and are incapable of conducting your[self...] in a Jedi Like manner. Again, this is Sith behavior. As it matches much of what the Dark Aspect at Force Academy display in their forums....but that just my own personal observation. Perhaps I missed something
>Then you should be able to Improve your ability to be Socially acceptable to others. But of course, that is just your choice. I have no authority over what you choose to do in the end.
>Having been on the receiving end of this behavior (Context is important here)In your more recent PM to me where you mocked my choices, compared me to a South Park cartoon, and made me feel disrespected because I did not ascribe to your methods of handling a situationI can personally say that your behavior and personality leaves much to be desired. [/b]

Again. Please forgive my horrendous mistake of leaving out all the required disclaimers in my post. My bad.

KitsuTails wrote

It is seen as Rudeness because being indifferent towards others. Is, Rude. Just because you do not like someone, their actions, or what they say. Does not mean you need to look down your nose as if your opinion is superior than their own. It's not. That is a Sith's way of thinking.

Only Sith deal in games.

Please, enough of the black and white bs...

Desolous wrote: While we're generalizing entire language speaking regions I find Spanish speaking countries to be party animals and soccer fiends.

I mean, really ren? You can't be serious.

I am very serious. It's obviously a generalization (and it isn't specific the english speakers), but there are other cultures/languages that find this type of attitude very rude. Go to the netherlands and find out if you make any friends by being sweet. There are languages/cultures where smalltalk doesn't exist. In the UK, people will get offended by language in one setting, yet laugh at the darkest jokes in another. (which personally is something I like)
The concept of rude language in english comes from language differences between the elite and the people. Language registers are in the field of sociolinguistics. Guess what "vulgar" means: "of the common people"... This has been going on since the roman era.

All those social-services type of people may like to think they care greatly about people, yet they'll take your kids and put them in care (what a joke name) whenever they feel you failed to do what they believe is the right thing.
I much prefer surrounding myself with rougher, more honest people, whom, with one exception, are immigrants or from an immigrant background. Besides, if you've never been greeted by an old man with "salaam alaikum pudi", you simply haven't lived.

And for those bring-up Jedi-ness to it: Jedi believe " moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion and over time", which i think is perfectly reflected in that quote in my signature.

Connor L. wrote: For sure, Arcade! Humans are not naturally rude or kind. But, in fact, humans are naturally selfish. We are all about self preservation and the preservation of our loved ones.

Damn I am really late to the party

Basically what you are describing is Psychological Egoism and if you'll bear with me I'll tell you why it is in fact an irrational belief that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I will only include the "highlights" and eventual conclusion of this philosophical theory of ethics, which will hopefully give people enough information to understand its fundamental flaws...

Psychological egoism tells us that there is only one thing which motivates us: self-interest. This means that altruism, the direct desire to benefit others for their own sake and without any ulterior motive, does not exist.

*skips a couple of arguments so people don't get bored and just gets to the conclusion*

Letting the Evidence Decide
Psychological egoism is a form of begging the question therefore irrational.

The altruist says "I am acting altruistically."
The egoist says "You are actually just acting out of self-interest."
The altruist responds "No I am acting altruistically."
The egoist replies "No. You are either being deceptive or you are mistaken."
The altruist again responds "But I'm acting altruistically..."

The premise that one cannot act altruistically (the premise that everyone acts out of self-interest) presumes it's own conclusion.

Russ Shafer-Landau in The Fundamentals of Ethics wrote: Egoism is a theory about human motivation. And there are two sorts of evidence we can rely on when it comes to determining people's motives: testimony and behaviour. People can tell us what moves them, and we can see for ourselves how they behave. Neither kind of evidence is perfect. We can misinterpret behaviour. And people can be deceptive about their true motives. Still, testimony and behaviour are the only sources of evidence we have. And they both point strongly to the existence of altruism. To discredit all such testimony, and to reinterpret all such behaviour, is to render egoism as unreasonable. If we are prepared to let evidence decide the matter, we must decide that psychological egoism is false.

There is a logical flaw to the argument, yes. We can't know every situation in the universe. So, philosophically and in rhetorical argument, there is no way to definitively conclude that altruism does not exist.

However, we're speaking in terms of opinions here and self-experience. Have I acted in my life in a way that could be construed as altruism? Yes. Kit asked me earlier what I do on "non-volunteer" days, which I had to chuckle at. I think she's saying that I don't do anything good unless it makes me look good. That's not true at all. I genuinely enjoy helping people. I get my hands dirty because I'm a Jedi and that's what Jedi do. I've been a Jedi for most of my life.

If I hadn't gone through Jedi training, I probably would not be so generous and gracious as I am. That's not bragging at all; I could stand to improve my volunteering and kindness. That's my job as a Jedi, though. To improve on this behavior.

You could say that Jedi is my culture. I am influenced by its teachings, and those are the motivations for me to exhibit the proper behaviors of a Jedi.

I'm not going to lie, though, and say I'm a touchy feely really cool I'm always polite and sweet guy. No.. I'm a scratching, belching, intelligent, creative, down to earth fellow who is rough around the edges. That's my truth. That doesn't mean I can't be a Jedi. I've let go of my preconceived notions of what makes a Jedi. Can't you all? To be honest, I don't like Kit. I'm not going to name call (anymore, sorry about the Cartman thing). But, I don't know enough about her to know if she's Jedi material or not. Based on what I've seen, she provides for a specific need in the community. NOBODY does Gathering planning as well as she does. She's done it the most and always taken the lead. That's all I know. Notice how I didn't judge her character or anything. I just looked at her actions and did not assign them anything.

This argument is probably more about the people criticizing me more than it is actually about me. Maybe these are qualities you all have experienced in your life, and you find them unpleasant. So, you think they are anti-Jedi and you are taking your frustrations out on me because I refuse to demonize ANY quality.

That's just an assumption. It may or may not be true, so please don't get in a tizzy about it.

This is a really fun conversation. We're talking about things that matter now, which is fabulous as well. I have learned a lot from this discussion. And, I'm hoping that others have taken away things too. In fact, I have been messaged by a couple of people already thanking me for the post and saying that even if they don't agree with me, they see my points and have learned.

This is what being a Jedi is about. It's about taking the crux of truth and rationalizing it. We're learning coping skills and argument skills and all sorts of skillz. I'm eager to continue the discussion.

I think she's saying that I don't do anything good unless it makes me look good.

That is not what I was saying at all :laugh: I was sticking to the point of the topic Rudeness vs Indifference....not here to sing your praises :silly: I could sit here and tell folks about the good things you have done for the community because I have been around enough to see it You and I go back enough to know there is more to the picture.

I volunteer all the time, whether or not people know I do. That's how I was raised to be. Just how I roll. I think volunteering (which I'm defining as doing stuff for people without any expected return from them) is very fulfilling.

Akkarin wrote: Basically what you are describing is Psychological Egoism and if you'll bear with me I'll tell you why it is in fact an irrational belief that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I appreciate this explanation, Akkarin, and as Connor pointed out I think we are learning a lot from this conversation. I'm still having some trouble with the argument though, so I've got a few questions. I know you left out a lot of the argument for the sake of brevity, so the answers are probably in the details.

Akkarin wrote: The altruist says "I am acting altruistically."
The egoist says "You are actually just acting out of self-interest."
The altruist responds "No I am acting altruistically."
The egoist replies "No. You are either being deceptive or you are mistaken."
The altruist again responds "But I'm acting altruistically..."

Am I to assume that the altruist's argument is correct simply because they keep repeating it? Couldn't the egoist do the same thing?

The egoist says "You are acting out of self-interest."
The altruist responds "No. I am acting altruistically."
The egoist replies "No. You are actually acting out of self interest."
The altruist responds "No. I'm helping other people, not myself."
The egoist replies "Which is in your own self-interest"
etc, etc, etc...

Russ Shafer-Landau in The Fundamentals of Ethics wrote: Neither kind of evidence is perfect. We can misinterpret behaviour. And people can be deceptive about their true motives.

So, how would we ever be able to tell if someone is truly altruistic, or just being deceptive?

And if altruistic behavior benefits the altruist in any way, doesn't that contradict the definition of altruism in the first place since now the behavior is also in the self-interest of the altruist? Or is it all about the original motivation for the behavior?

OMG my head hurts now... :laugh: