Jedi Pyramid

I’m all for encouraging ourselves and each other to be better people, but I’m not real wild about trying to force it through strict rules. A lot of the things you’ve written, Alethea, are really awesome ideas to live by, but some aren’t always doable. And I agree that working together is a great thing, but I also understand how unification could wash away our differences.

You used Christians as an example. Yes, they follow some of the same basic (and I mean basic) principles, but many of them go about getting there in different ways. Why can’t TOTJO and the other Jedi sites continue following their courses without a unifying set of rules? I can’t say for sure, but I bet we all pretty much want to be good people who do good things in our lives. So we already have a unifying idea.

While the rules you’ve written out are pretty good, they’re also very daunting. I feel like it could turn a lot of people away. Many people don’t start on a religion/philosophy by jumping in gung ho. Many dip their toes, and your rules don’t seem to give much room for toe dipping. I know if I was just starting out and TOTJO used a long list of tough rules I would have run away screaming. I don’t know any kung fu, I don’t have a job “saving” people, and I don’t agree with following uncouth laws set by government (Even Gandhi and Dr. King were lawbreakers). Would all that mean I’m kicked out of the Jedi club?

And why can’t anybody call themselves a Jedi? We didn’t coin the term, and we don’t have the last say on what it means. Why can’t a new person to the religion/philosophy be called a Jedi? New people to Christianity are still called Christians.

But I do admire you for trying to push us forward. And I have gotten some good ideas on how I could grow…I just like to do it in my own way and time.

For clarification, because you are not the first to misunderstand the Kitsu standards. Many of us stood firmly against Kitsu's extracurricular standards for all Jedi. My point in showing what those talks produced is to demonstrate why they were complete flops of ideas. I was relating it directly to the idea of No Child aleft Behind, which enforces standardized training across school systems.

The Jedi Circle was meant to give the community an outline for how to best achieve becoming a Jedi. To read up on its various incarnations you can find that document at: http://jediacademyonline.com/jcircle.html as others have pointed out various times, it doesn't hit the mark for different reasons. One guy gave me that for all of it's talk against the path being religious the document sounds too much like a religious document. Some dislike it because compassion is listed as a misconception, some against it because religion is mentioned as a misconception. The original had martial arts listed as a requirement. Now it lists physical fitness, but it doesn't cover that Jedi are meant to be guardians of peace, it doesn't cover the code sufficiently, the list goes on.

Now this document can also be used to point someone to something which is short, to the point and describes exactly what it means to be a Jedi regardless of your order's affiliation. It is an aide for people that find themselves constantly having to explain themselves to others.

"Well each order has a different focus, but in the general sense we all agree that a Jedi follows these basic concepts. Some are more strict than others, but this is our very core."

ça, c'est fait ! :laugh:

Cheers, Br. John ! I'd forgotten about that one !

That would be up to the order to bring you into the fold before you are introduced to the concepts of what it truly means to be a Jedi. I think a lot of you are not reading the Defense Art in its entirety because I keep seeing Martial Arts getting brought up. Akkarin, by the outline given, carries his defense art in counseling others, Br. John's ability to defend others comes from his legal background, others might be intel gathers, writers and so forth. These can be natural talents expanded upon (and really it doesn't have to be too terribly expanded on, but used in some capacity. Just the last night I found myself counseling my manager, small scale, bit he needed some ideas on how he could reconcile problems he sees when he goes to church, so we talked. The idea is to find a creative method of living the path within your means. It does not have to be grand, just so long as you are working toile the lives of others better, and not just your own. An example of someone not fulfilling the Jedi Path would be if all you were doing is living day to day, going to work, doing your job and nothing more, come home, play video games, and just carry on like this for the rest of your life. Another example would be a monk that does nothing but clean a monastery. He doesn't get involved in the lives of those around him, he just focuses on himself, his prayers/meditations and the deity he has chosen to worship. While both are doing something for others, it is devoid of real action to actually do a service for those around them. The guy that goes to work and plays games may find instead that he needs to get out and start up a club for local teens to get involved in so they are off the street, or look to help mentor someone at work. The monk may begin to look for some means of getting his monastery involved with the community (think Sister Act 2) or seek out a method of making the ancient teachings understandable to a modern audience, using in speaking out against unjustified wars or actions against humanity.

Then we have that Jedi abide by the laws. If you read that section carefully, you will notice that there are provisions for going against the law. Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr both fit well within the rights under the provision of revolution. Furthermore, it is important to note that until you start digging into the laws of different areas you will find that you probably do not know them nearly as well as you think. For example, honor killings (contrary to popular belief) are not actually legal in the majority of middle eastern countries, they are mostly just overlooked.

Bring us into the fold ?

But, what make you think that some of us, or none of us, are doing that ?

Or, one doesn't have to be Jedi to be altruist ... it just happens that we are. Moreover, doing altruistic acts and then shouting from all the rooftops about it is not really virtuous.

Please, Alethea, we're not quite so much the 'hillbilly' faction of the Jedi as you are making us out to be.

The Jedi Circle was meant to give the community an outline for how to best achieve becoming a Jedi. To read up on its various incarnations you can find that document at: jediacademyonline.com/jcircle.html as others have pointed out various times, it doesn't hit the mark for different reasons. One guy gave me that for all of it's talk against the path being religious the document sounds too much like a religious document. Some dislike it because compassion is listed as a misconception, some against it because religion is mentioned as a misconception.

Considering this is Opie and he can't stand Jediism, totjo especially, it does not surprise me.


Speaking of Jediism, it is what we practice. as V-Tog said, it is our religion. "Jedi realism"/"force realism"/"light adept"/etc are not a religion, but an attempt at emulating all or some of the things fictional Jedi do. the difference being that we concern ourselves with matters of faith and philosophy a lot more than we do with these:

Defense Art- In the fiction, Jedi were “guardians of peace” (“Jedi Code”, n.d.). As real life Jedi, we acknowledge that this means defending people. A “Defense Art” is not necessarily physical in nature, it can be through speech, writing, diplomacy or a number of other options which lead to an active method of curing the world of oppression. An example might be legislation which a government passes to build a better world, Martin Luther King speaking out against the evils of racism, or even the writings of prominent media personalities to bring about awareness of atrocities ongoing around the world. Combative defense arts, however, are also encouraged.

Physical Art- A physical art may be overlooked given the right circumstance (e.g. having a serious disability which prevents you from any movement). However, if a Jedi has some or all mobility, they should seek a physical art (Martial Arts, Yoga, Ballet, Weight Lifting, Running, etc) which keeps them them in shape and focuses on maintaining discipline of their bodies. Part of the physical art, which can be observed by all Jedi regardless of their mobility, is health. A Jedi should eat right, and maintain their health to the best of their ability (it is understandable if you have legitimate medical issues preventing “perfect health”).

Duty to the People- A Jedi's mission is to support their community through service. This service can be taken in many different (legal) directions, such as becoming a lawyer, an activist, a politician, police officer, volunteer for community efforts or an array of projects aimed at giving back to the community. A Jedi is also charged with acting when they see an injustice (which might be as simple as making a phone call to the police, or taking the time to listen to someone in their time of need- stranger or not). A Jedi does what is within their means, but the main point is that they must always act in an objective manner.

Respect the Law-A Jedi knows enough of the law to operate within it. Jedi are charged to live by the laws of the land they are in, even if it means tolerating those laws which they do not support. This does not preclude them from seeking to change the law (which may or may not include becoming part of or even starting a revolution-when no other options are available) to better the community, in fact- if a Jedi feels compelled to do so it is a respectable mission for a Jedi to fulfill.

Like chat, with too much input, and too many words...

I withdraw from this conversation...

Ren, those new orders tended to fall apart and rejoin the orders they split from or new orders from there. You have been almost to every order, but for a good chunk of time stayed at JS. That was torn apart for a number of reasons, but at the top of everyone's list was the unification process it was Jedi7 letting Aryas (is that the right name, the Satanist) run amuck and abuse abound. She went to Noetic Jedi and stayed there until it died...it's got some activity, but its dead. Coelescere bounced apart but the problem there was time and Aweh making a huge to do and getting people up in arms about the religious factor. Eventually it got to A different group that realized they didn't fit the Jedi archetype and Kitsu gave them the idea to pursue their more humble version of Force exploration under the banner of Baran Do. The site gets traffic, but not a lot of talk anymore, and as such I'm working to preserve their work by pulling what they allow me to into the FA.

Likewise, RJE sprang off of RJK just 8 months ago because Mi-Zhe Fu came back and wanted to through out all of the material that others had worked hard on and return to the sorts of stuff he had during his "glory days". The order worked hard to get out from under him, and when he didn't want to make compromises and in general stopped acting as a Jedi should by lying and declaring enemies of the state based on who he didn't really like (that's how they saw it, I won't give my personal opinion on the matter), they jumped ship. RJK split between RJE, RJK and Jedi Academy Online (Opie's order). Poor retreated to his own corner because he didn't see forward movement at FA, and was betrayed at RJE and RJK by two people he thought he could trust. RJE experiences little public activity, and Cody recently left the council because he felt no one actually wanted to work towards being better Jedi because no one invested the time he thought they should into their training.

Ashla Knights sprang off of FA because Derek came at a time when the training was low and pretty slow movement forward. When he could not get what he sought after he went elsewhere. The site enjoyed a few years but when it shut down for revisions and new material to become something other than Jedi (they're Jedi, they just won't tell you in public) it went down for too long and now has dwindling results. This is another group I may seek to pull material from for the FA before it is lost.

It was not the unification process which split the majority if these orders apart as it was the inability of the person running the order inability to be flexible.

Consider this, Ren, in all of the time that the community has been alive and kicking, did you ever believe an order would stay alive for the length of 15 years? With RJK the running lead (12 years) behind FA looking to become a dead forum only as recent as 8 months ago because of the problems which came about from MZF returning, what do you think is the reason for success at FA, ToTJO, IJRS and ToTJF? (JAO has yet to stand for 5 years, so it's not included here). For FA, it's that we have competition and opportunity to rise within the structure or find a niche we fall into. ToTJO because Br. John is allowing his clergy to take charge, instead of ruling with an iron fist. Jax at IJRS is open to new developments in programs and ToTJF....you know I don't know enough about them to make that call, but I bet it has something to do with the way leadership is run. So no, it's not the unification process that tears us apart, it's not the differences either (save in the case of the Baran Do, which is fine, they wanted to explore "the Force" in a less active means. Just sayin'.

Wow, there was a lot of name dropping and jedi history to this, so I just want to say that I didn't read it all.

Ally, we've talked about this. Most of the Jedi community will not accept things for the simple fact they don't want to. We can run rational arguments, jedi history and any other reason we want, but ultimately unless they write it, it will be rejected out of hand.

And you know what, I am OK with that.

I have also realized I DON'T want the entire community joining us. If we have to try to convince people that Jedi train and better their connection to the force to help others, then they aren't the kind of people we want anyway. V-tog was absolutely right that most people are not willing to jump right into something new. They like to get their feet wet first.

As long as we do our thing, and they do their thing, new people will open doors for themselves here. Then when they eventually come to the conclusion that they should step it up and step away from the computer and take their skills to the streets, we will be there.

I know this sounds like a douche statement, but allowing in a bunch of "sunday jedi" would cheapen what we are trying to achieve. A religious service order, not a religion

I think Andy's post highlights the reason why the council isn't even discussing this Ally. We're fine doing our own thing, we wish you the best with yours.

You misunderstand. A review of everyone which make up the knights and masters here would turn up that they hit the marks in everything outlined here (the Jedi Pyramid), if you looked at their lives, I am confident. But a review of what you say when you are asked to defend your
position on what a Jedi is, is the exact opposite. You sound like a bunch of Christians making the statement that which is needed to be a Christian is to attend church, believe Gid exists and Jesus died for your sins. Here all that us summed up by saying "We are Jedi because we believe in the Force". You don't defend the document that I linked earlier from the training program, the only persons which has done so in the past are Br. John and Ren.

Ren, you yourself keep missing that point when the question comes up. Again, regardless of what you say, you ARE a Force Realist which can be practiced in a religious sense (Jediism is the only religion which came from Star Wars, the only respected Sith sites denounce the concept of it being a religious philosophy). Now that said, if you wanted to run with "All you need is a belief in "the Force" and to live a good life seeking to flow within "the Force", then you could very well fall into the category of the religion Charles has coined for himself- Forcist, which also falls into the purview of Force Realism. Look at it this way, Force Realist is to Christianity what Jediism is to Southern Baptist. If you draw out a family tree diagram, Force Realism and Christianity would intersect at Christian Jedi and Catholic Sith.

Anyway, what good is philosophy if you are not living it? In the 16 Basic Teachings of the Jedi 8,9,15, and 16 all support the disciplines you are denouncing. ToTJO's version of the Jedi Creed does as well. So if you are going to go toe to toe with me based on philosophy and faith, you are going to have to give me more than what you have concluded. I mean, no one can look at you and automatically know if your answer is right if you simply write x=15 and don't give us the method which you reached such a conclusion.

Thanks for the post Andy...

Yours, I read, lol...

No...

We are not going to go, "HALLELUJAH", and just embrace the ideas of another site...

We don't do that with ideas here between people...

Conversations ensue, the should be left to be considered....

I barely have time to read and consider your words, now a few hours later, there os 3+ pages... lol...

I always take offence at your words Andy, concerning "Sunday Jedi", or whatever term you use in a post...

Ya don't know me so you can't be speaking of me, you have no idea what I do for my community, yet your words are, eh, "poorly received"?

Im just happy the communities are talking...

I don't want FA becoming TOTJO, nor TOTJO becoming FA...

Not that this is the presentation, but it seems always that people wanna exclude others...

OR want everyone to join together...

In one post "stop calling it Jediism"? Im not a "Jediism", I practice it....

We are not roleplayers, so, to me, it makes make me a realist, damn everyone else's definition... lol...

Ally, as I said, we are happy growing our own way, in our own direction.

Perhaps you should read this:

The 16 Teachings

1. Jedi are in touch with The Force. We are open to spiritual awareness and keep our minds in tune with the beauty of the world. We are forever learning and open our minds to experiences and knowledge of ourselves and others.

2. Jedi maintain a clear mind; which can be achieved through meditation and contemplation. Our minds can become unduly troubled and concerned with the happenings of the world. We must work on overcoming our individual issues through training and diligence.

3. Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now. We let ourselves flow like water through the events around us. We embrace the ever changing and fluid world, adapting and changing as it does.

4. Jedi are wary of attachments, both material and personal. The obsession over possessions and people creates the fear of losing those possessions and relationships which can cause ourselves to be trapped in a state of depression and loss.

5. Jedi understand that well-being consists in the physical, the mental and the spiritual. A Jedi trains each to ensure they remain capable of performing their duties to the best of their ability. All of these are interconnected and essential part our training in becoming more harmonious with The Force.

6. Jedi use their skills to the best of their ability. We do not use our knowledge and skill to boast or be prideful. We are mindful of the ego and mindful of our actions, exercising wisdom and humility.

7. Jedi understand their limitation. We recognise and take responsibility for our failures and develop a level of modesty about them. We respect the right for others to disagree and understand that they themselves are not perfect.

8. Jedi are patient. We work on training ourselves not to precipitate events around us. We know that becoming a Jedi is long and hard and requires rigorous dedication and commitment. Jedi train to act with a conscientious state of calmness.

9. Jedi have integrity. We are authentic to what we believe and are open, honest and true to our purpose and our minds. We remove all masks to reveal ourselves as courageous and noble of heart. We do not hide from fear of damage to our image because we know that our image cannot be blemished from the words and actions of others.

10. Jedi serve in many ways. Each action performed, no matter the scale, influences the world. With this in mind Jedi perform each action with peace, caring, love, compassion and humility. So it is that each Jedi improves the world with each deed they perform.

11. Jedi are mindful of their thoughts. We recognise the beauty in others and we provide help to those who come seeking it. Through our benevolent actions we strengthen not only ourselves but also our communities. Jedi act without prejudice.

12. Jedi believe that love and compassion are central to their lives. We must love and care for each other as we must love and care for ourselves; by doing this we envelop all life in the positivity of our actions and thoughts. We are providers and beacons of hope.

13. Jedi cultivate empathy. We try to view things from another’s perspective making us sensitive listeners. We provide the confidence people need when talking through their difficulties and we share our learning with those who would benefit. We do this to help create a more harmonious society.

14. Jedi are guardians of peace. We believe in helping all those that are in need, in whatever form, to the best of our ability. We recognise that sometimes providing help requires courage in the face of adversity but understand that conflict is resolved through peace, understanding and harmony.

15. Jedi believe in eternal life through the Force. We do not become obsessed in mourning those who pass. We may grieve at their passing but we are content, knowing that they will forever be a part of The Force and so always a part of us.

16. Jedi make a commitment to their cause and to humanity. Our ideals, philosophies, and practices define the belief of Jediism and we take action on this path for self-improvement and to help others. We are both the witnesses and protectors of the Jedi way by the practice of our convictions.



The 21 Maxims



Prowess: To seek excellence in all endeavors expected of a Jedi.

A Jedi strives to acquire greater skill and expertise in what they do at all times so that it may be used in the service of the greater good, and not for personal profit. This requires discipline, patience and perfect practice.

Justice: To always seek the path of ‘right’.

A Jedi is unencumbered by bias or personal interest. Justice is a double-edged sword, one that protects the weak, yet also passes judgements according to a set of values. A Jedi tolerates that which is not Jedi and does not pass judgement on that which causes no harm for it is just.

Loyalty: To have faith in your Jedi brothers and sisters.

A Jedi remains true to what they have learned and to their own teachings. A Jedi always serves those who wish to learn more of the ways of the Force and in doing so, remain loyal to the way of Jediism and their Order.

Defense: To defend the way of Jediism.

A Jedi is sworn by oath to defend their faith and all it encompasses.

Courage: To have the will.

To be a Jedi sometimes means choosing the more difficult path, the personally expensive one. A Jedi knows they must make the right choice, take the right side and that the weak they have sworn to defend often stand alone. A Jedi puts aside fear, regret, and uncertainty yet know the difference between courage and sheer stupidity.

Faith: To trust in the ways of the Force.

Although the ways of the Force may seem strange at times, a Jedi always knows their place and their role within it.

Humility: To have no ego.

A Jedi does not boast of their accomplishments and knows that their accomplishment is its own reward.

Fearlessness: To have no self-imposed limits.

Fear is that which prevents a Jedi from accomplishing their duty. A Jedi learns to let go of their fears through their faith in the Force and has no shame in admitting their shortfalls when they occur.

Nobility: To act with honour.

A Jedi does not engage in petty, mean or otherwise dubious activities. Acting with stature and distinction influences others, offering a compelling example of what can be achieved by those who follow Jediism.

Honesty: To avoid lies.

A Jedi is honest with themselves and seeks to always go beyond appearances. There can be no honest self without the knowledge and wisdom to see truth.

Pure Motive: To act with motive and purpose.

Without a sound motive and purpose, action has no meaning, no destination and lacks a foundation. A Jedi moves with the Force, trusts in its ways. A Jedi’s actions are firmly based upon a deep motivation to be as their path dictates.

Discipline: To let the self be sole master of the self.

A Jedi’s mind is structured, peaceful, unencombered by emotions, physical state or external stimuli.

Focus: To select what matters most.

A Jedi focuses in the task at hand. Although a Jedi is aware of the past, and wary of the present's impact on the future, through discipline they know how to select and concentrate on priorities.

Discretion: To become invisible.

A Jedi knows there is a time and place for all things. They do not actively interfere in worldly affairs and refrain from overtly supporting or opposing other individuals or organizations.

Meditation: To exercise the mind.

Through regular meditation a Jedi examines their motivations, and are certain that they are not allowing emotion, ignorance, or passion to intrude upon them. Meditation can be used by a Jedi to improve their mindfulness, focus, or patience.

Training: To know one's ignorance.

A Jedi knows there is always something more to learn and seeks new lessons every day.

Integrity: To be consistent.

A Jedi lives as a Jedi at all times. Hypocrisy is their worst enemy.

Morality: To know the danger of belief.

A Jedi knows how contradicting beliefs of what is right and wrong can lead to devastating crimes and conflicts. A Jedi takes a step away from the subjectivity of opinion in favour of the peace of objectivity. A Jedi does not force their values upon others.

Conflict: To know when to fight.

A Jedi knows the conflicting nature of the Force but they also know its peace and serenity. A Jedi never blindly enters conflict and always does so for the greater good.

Intervention: To know when not to act.

A Jedi knows how inaction can have as great an impact as action and how some of the greatest lessons are self-taught. To be a victor is also taking that victory from those you protect. A Jedi intervenes only when a Jedi's intervention is required.

Harmony: To be connected to the Force.

A Jedi seeks to live in harmony with the Force, for that is the reason to be a jedi. To better understand its ways, to better know one's place within it.

Alethea wrote: Anyway, what good is philosophy if you are not living it? I

Now im irritated...

How do you know we are not?

Most of you make good points. To which I will add the old maxim: 'only god can judge me.' Not technically accurate, but the sentiment remains.

Just read from start to finish...

During Self Certainty you start talking about Self Awareness again and if you talk about Self Awareness, keep it all in one place...:

Self awareness goes hand in hand with the concept of self honesty. In this [subject is Self Awareness] a Jedi must be constantly looking inward for their motivations, their directions, what moves them, and why they allow it to do so. Without this personal understanding, we risk falling prey to our own emotional direction rather than the path laid down by the Code we adhere to.

After my indicated point about the subject the entire thing can be separated from Self Certainty because you don't talk about it, or don't make it explicit

Conquer

Aggression

Conquer itself sounds aggressive and yet you talk about not being aggressive... a more appropriate word would be 'Overcome'...

Attachments: 'loose' should be lose

Defense Art: '(“Jedi Code”, n.d.)' you don't need to source that... especially not in doctrine. Additionally why only mention the fiction explicitly here? It can be mentioned, and compared with 'real life Jedi' as you put, in almost every single one.. just curious why you chose to do so here?

Physical Art: 'A physical art may be overlooked given the right circumstance (e.g. having a serious disability which prevents you from any movement).' that disrupts the flow of reading completely. This would be better: A physical art may be overlooked in circumstances such as physical disablement or other similarly limiting conditions.

Scholarly Art: don't get political! 'to diplomatic training and work within the U.N' http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/29/robert-mugabe-un-international-envoy-tourism

That is why TotJO speaks only for TotJO, we don't want to be associated with people or organisations we can't control and who can cast doubt on us because of their actions and our association...

I think the entire document would benefit from brevity...

I would also personally re-phrase a lot. I will stop the analysis at that point but you get my drift...

I also don't really get the whole big deal with unification... I'm happy here at TotJO and don't see why we should become 'unified'. Where does unification end? Once all Jedi in the world are under 1 church... that won't happen so I'm not going to try and force it... I don't say that spitefully but just in a "We're happy so why? *looks puzzled*" kind of way....

Don't fix what isn't broken...

Sorry to go on but:

ren wrote: at totjo apprenticeships are usually custom, and while masters have to partially work within a framework (the A.Div), they seem to very, very much enjoy the ability to do what they want to do.

I wish to expand...

You talk about the Initiates Programme a lot [Ally]... why focus on that? A simple example is thus: You need to be training on the Initiates Programme for 2 months before you can receive your rank. You need to be training under an Apprenticeship for 6 months to ever become a Knight. We can therefore conclude, with some satisfaction, that the Apprenticeship will 3 times longer than the IP so it's value will be 3 times greater (at least material covered)... that coupled with the fact that you also get personal teaching and training and development adds much greater weight...

Don't judge our training, which you haven't gone through, on the >25% publicly shown... (don't even get me started on the database of over a hundred degree lessons... And the Clerical training...)

And please don't focus on 'Jedi' and disregard the value we place on other ranks. You say you are a Jedi when you have completed the training... well that for us is Jedi Knight... We have lots of 'Jedi' that sign in once and never again... They are 'Jedi' yes, but not 'Jedi Knights'...

I mean no offence Ally... but sometimes I just feel like you focus too much on what is and what isn't based on your definitions... The world is existential... what you say is different to what I think, so leave me out...

Oh and those basic teachings are rubbish I rewrote them (with help of Alex and a little ren) and they should be implemented pretty soon (as ren has already mentioned in the thread)

Ally:

Andy Spalding wrote: unless they write it, it will be rejected out of hand.

this is the same argument you have with hannigan. Unless someone accepts a title, they will not use it to define themselves. You can call all jedi Force Realists till you are blue in the face, but unless they say yea, it is going to be the same argument over, and over and over. But hey, it's not my time.

And as far as their living their own tennants, I am actually going to quote jestor with this one:

Anyone can call themselves jedi, it is up to you if you believe them.

The proof is in the pudding.

We set the bar high. To roll with me, there needs to be a desire to pass that bar. I quite honestly DO NOT CARE what people on the other side of the world call themselves. I only worry about the quality that heartland Jedi possess.

Anyway, after this I am out. At drill. If you want to try to convince a bunch of people who do not want to meet our bar, that is your time to waste.

Oooooooooooo there they are! [16 Basic Teachings]

I think we would all agree: What an outstandingly formed piece of perfection and art those teachings are! :laugh: :whistle:

Just saw ren's post

Alethea Thompson wrote: You misunderstand. A review of everyone which make up the knights and masters here would turn up that they hit the marks in everything outlined here (the Jedi Pyramid), if you looked at their lives, I am confident. But a review of what you say when you are asked to defend your
position on what a Jedi is, is the exact opposite. You sound like a bunch of Christians making the statement that which is needed to be a Christian is to attend church, believe Gid exists and Jesus died for your sins. Here all that us summed up by saying "We are Jedi because we believe in the Force". You don't defend the document that I linked earlier from the training program, the only persons which has done so in the past are Br. John and Ren.

Ren, you yourself keep missing that point when the question comes up. Again, regardless of what you say, you ARE a Force Realist which can be practiced in a religious sense (Jediism is the only religion which came from Star Wars, the only respected Sith sites denounce the concept of it being a religious philosophy). Now that said, if you wanted to run with "All you need is a belief in "the Force" and to live a good life seeking to flow within "the Force", then you could very well fall into the category of the religion Charles has coined for himself- Forcist, which also falls into the purview of Force Realism. Look at it this way, Force Realist is to Christianity what Jediism is to Southern Baptist. If you draw out a family tree diagram, Force Realism and Christianity would intersect at Christian Jedi and Catholic Sith.

Anyway, what good is philosophy if you are not living it? In the 16 Basic Teachings of the Jedi 8,9,15, and 16 all support the disciplines you are denouncing. ToTJO's version of the Jedi Creed does as well. So if you are going to go toe to toe with me based on philosophy and faith, you are going to have to give me more than what you have concluded. I mean, no one can look at you and automatically know if your answer is right if you simply write x=15 and don't give us the method which you reached such a conclusion.

I ask that you refrain from compairing us to Christians and Catholics....