The Problem with Black Lives Matter

6 years 4 months ago #290959 by Rosalyn J
I created this topic as a lesson for myself. Its rather taken off, wouldn't you say?
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6 years 4 months ago #290960 by MadHatter

Rosalyn J wrote: I created this topic as a lesson for myself. Its rather taken off, wouldn't you say?

Indeed and its created valuable ideas from all sides. One does not have to agree with people or ideas to learn from them. So thanks for creating it

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6 years 4 months ago #291216 by ZealotX

MadHatter wrote:

Atticus wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: People resort to violence when they are afraid or feel like no one is listening to them. The violence will stop once we start listening and ease them through those fears, but recognizing the causes of the violence is necessary to stopping it.

That is the sentiment of id stop beating you if you do what I say. In short the story of every abusive relationship Ive ever heard. Ive heard the same excuse of abusers were abused themselves and are scared/angry. etc etc. too. Guess what? Does not make it right nor does it mean anyone has to take it. NO ONE deserves to be a punching bag because of someone else's issues. Nor is there anything in the Jedi creed or common sense that dictates you should be

I don't think either perspective is wrong. Understanding why tensions might escalate into violence is not the same as tolerating it.

Understanding is not listening to. I do not need to listen to a bully or abuser. If you want to be listened to you need to be civil. If I walked up to you screaming at you do you think you would listen or would you get out of there? Further violence is not ok outside of defense of self or others so no I will not understand it. I will not condone or accept it. No one should have to deal with that. And taking it out on third parties is sure as heck not going to get you listened to.

Everything you have said here is perfectly understandable. You are a reasonable person and you expect logic and reason from others as most of us here do.

No one is condoning "extreme" actions. However, I feel like this audience in particular should have a good fundamental understanding of balance and how things come into balance.

When a pendulum swings so far to the right it will probably swing a least a little bit left. What I want to remind you is that when we're talking about BLM we're talking about REACTIONS, not actions. If you do something to me my reaction may be very muted in comparison with someone else. Why? I have a pretty high tolerance for such things and therefore with a high level of discipline and self-control my reactions are usually muted. I transfer that external conflict into an internal conflict and deal with it on a level of ideas.

Now... if BLM had an army of people who are just like me then every one of the thousands of protesters would have been perfect.

Not the case. The more people you add to any concoction the more potential you have for explosion.

When you deal with a handful of people you can get to know each one, train them for whatever you're going to do, and they'll follow your lead. I think many people are assuming the features of a small organization as a foundation for judging BLM as if it is capable of controlling people who are hurt, who are scared, and who are angry.

Slavery is a given. But for at least 350 years black people have been dealing with an underlying toxic attitude and mentality that exists to this day. You can legislate away slavery and even segregation (to some extent). But you CANNOT legislate away the toxic mentality of racism. For hundreds of years black people have been beaten and hung on trees. For hundreds of years, they were beaten until their skin was ripped from their bodies. You cannot help but to question the morality and even the humanity of a people who do this and who allow this to happen as part of their culture and society. Seeing your children born into this is difficult enough. But now let's add insult to injury.

Many of the people who led the lynchings were police officers. They put on hoods to hide their identity. Why wear a mask? Because as long as we cannot prove who's doing it to us we cannot get justice based on the rules of this criminal justice system. And when the judges and police and prosecutors are friends, you have to try to have faith that they will somehow put their relationships aside and do their jobs. However, time and time again.... we see... they do not. And now, even without the hoods, police officers are still lynching and murdering us, not simply because we're black, but based on cultural biases that prejudice black men as being a threat to their (default: white) society.

For hundreds of years black people fought within the system, getting denied at every level. Black people protested peacefully. Even then... they were beaten by the police during peaceful protests, during marches. Hoses and dogs were unleashed on black people during the civil rights movement.

Worried about 3rd party's property??? BLACK PEOPLE WERE THE PROPERTY!!

So while I can sympathize with someone who is "innocent" you'll have to excuse me when I say this is NOTHING compared to the experience of black people in America.

And I would argue that over the years black people have had tremendous discipline, as a group, and tremendous respect for the law, under the circumstances because it's relative... not absolute.

We see a world controlled by money and lawyers who poke holes in the law whenever it suits their client. That's why it was such a victory when OJ got off. Whether he did it or not (hasn't been proven) most people were sure he did it but he was able to afford a legal team that did for him the same thing that has been done for many others who were rich. And it's always okay when whites get off after killing black people (may not be okay to you but seems fine to the majority by the way the conversation literally DIES without black people trying desperately to be heard).

It is only now thanks to technology that we can even show what's going on in our communities and how we're being policed DIFFERENTLY from whites. And it is only conflict that forces the truth to come out. So yeah... I'm sorry if a few windows get busted and Nike loses about $3000 when they make millions from the black community with shoes that cost over $140. But compare this to how the US fights terrorism. Let's be honest. How many women and children have died as part of "collateral damage"?

And because America isn't doing this offensive strikes with the stated purpose of killing "younglings" it seems to be okay. Meanwhile, a few crazies have gone after cops (nothing to do with BLM), and a few agitators and instigators who want some new shoes or TVs go to rallies hoping to start riots and some property is damaged. BLM didn't ask for that. It was not their stated purpose or agenda. But because they're black, everything that black people do, whether connected to them or not, they're judged to be at fault for. Do you know who is really responsible for keeping the peace? The POLICE.

Peacekeeping is, of course, one of your primary functions. But most cops would rather roll on a nice, straightforward, convenience store robbery than a “keep the peace” call.


Where is the law when crimes are committed by the US? Where is the punishment when an agency paid by the majority acts and behaves in a manner where even human life is collateral damage and is destroyed far greater than any riot could match? Do the ends justify the means? It sure seems that way.

And even then my argument has consistently been not to defend the unlawful behavior but argue against it being unfairly used against BLM while no one has ever offered advice/solutions on how BLM (without state authority) could prevent these things or control people's behavior. And at the same time I get why people are frustrated and angry. And the truth is that when organizations like BLM follow all the rules and nothing "newsworthy" happens....? There's less talk and it actually makes it so much easier for people to completely ignore. Everyone here should ask themselves whether we would still be talking about "BLACK LIVES MATTERS" if NOTHING ever happened at any of their events. Seriously. Would we?

Just think about it. I hear and respect what you're saying... but think about what I'm saying.
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6 years 4 months ago #291220 by ZealotX

Sven One wrote: I originally wasn't going to answer to this because it's fire on each side the pros and cons of this movement. What I don't understand is why this a topic? We're Jedi we aren't based off color skin but, our connection with The living Force. Does The Force have a certain color skin? No. The Force loves variety and it's obvious.

Secondly, From what I have read does attacking business' personal property and people really going to solve the issue? No, it's going to make you look ignorant. What if I ran around saying, "Jedi lives matter"? I have been beaten up on several occasions because of my devotion to Jeddism by other religions, former friends and mocks and ridiculed for my faith in the living Force. Well poor me! maybe I better go commit arson and break some windows in cars, pay a few people off to march around town and cause all sorts of hell? What you think I am kidding? Green goes with everything people. Will I actually do that? No. Because that is not the Jedi way. Does it hurt? Sure does especially those that used to call me friend. But, what is petty violence and racism going to do? Nothing. We all need to re-read MLK's speech again in America and wake up.

I cannot stand racism...I wish it would go away. I love you not based off your color of you skin, whether your from America or you from Africa. All life is sacred in my eyes and it's a shame it has to go down like this.

@Sven One

I understand your hesitation but this is an important discussion and honestly, I respect you too much to intentionally let my fire burn you. So no need to fear.

Secondly, I really hope your assumption of "attacking business property" isn't an assumption against BLM. There is a clear motive to starting a riot. There is a clear (profit) motive to breaking into a shoe store. These motives are clearly personal. Unless you see BLM all wearing new Nikes there is a 0% chance that there was ever a meeting in which BLM officials said "what we really need to do is riot and break into a shoe store so that 5 guys can get some new shoes".

Yes, this makes "you" look ignorant, but who... is "you"???

See racial bias tends to paint with a wider brush than necessary. Imagine if there was a member of this site who, Yoda forbid, started inexplicably killing younglings because he or she saw Anakin do it? Sure, it would never happen. Everyone on this site is very well hinged. But what if it did? Would we have to explain ourselves? Would we have to convince people that we weren't all crazy? Would we be treated like the guilty party because of our affiliation or association? You may never have said one word to that person but the implication would be that you're both Jedi. Think about that.

Now imagine, every time a black person commits a crime, ALL OTHER black people are somehow guilty by association. This is what the racial bias does. It gets to the point where if you're black you don't have to do anything suspicious in order for someone to think you're guilty (of something).

If you ran around saying "Jedi Lives Matter" you would look pretty silly TO ME. "YOU" as an individual. I wouldn't blame other Jedi for that. I wouldn't blame this site for that. That's something you decided to do on your own, not what you were taught/instructed/influenced/etc. to do by the organization. But for some strange odd reason, when a black person does something clearly ignorant or self-serving... BLM is blamed. And this is what I want people to think about, ponder, marinate on, etc.

Why the hell are people blaming BLM for the actions of a few individuals and yet we aren't supposed to blame the police for the many racists and the many shooting of unarmed black men we have seen? It's like for some reason people actually believe that an unarmed black man, for some reason, would attack an armed police officer who he doesn't even know and has no personal grievance with. The idea that seems to be bred into whites is that black men are irrational animals who will attack you without thought of the consequences at the slightest provocation. In reality, the animals seem to be on the other side, shooting us in the back, on the ground, in a car, on the playground, in a walmart, etc. where black people have NO HISTORY of the random terrorism they seem to expect out of these individuals. They shoot first and we ask questions later.

So if you wish racism to go away we must first start applying individual actions to INDIVIDUALS. Because rioting isn't part of black culture and isn't something we teach our kids.
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6 years 4 months ago #291318 by Eleven
@ ZealotX,

These are all valid points Zealot and much to consider. I do think it does start with the Individual for certain. If the Individual can change it could spark others to change. I would guess rioting is our right after all they're still having anti-trump marches. To blame the entire race I guess is a little harsh. It's just a such a hard thing for me to wrap my mind around because I don't see people as "black" or "Asian" or "White" I look at them as people just like me. I am a Jedi but, I am also a person. Thank you Zealot, you cause me to dig deeper and learn from perspectives that I don't normally think of an "outside the box" type thinking if you will.
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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #291338 by Adder
I also think its mostly counterproductive to see color in a person, unless the person makes it clear its intrinsic and important to their identity. Assuming skin color was the predominant indicator of that persons personality would seem racist, so it makes sense not to assume it... and so I'm firmly stuck firm on the togetherness, unity, and the 'human race is the only race' position.
In my contact with gender anti-discrimination specialists, anything else is counterproductive when it comes to discriminatory behaviours in the workplace - and can be better handled by inclusive strategies IMO. Nothing works perfect all the time, but so long as best practise is constantly refined, redesigned and reapplied it should lead to the best outcomes fastest.

But controversially perhaps, I don't think its racism that is the systematic problem, rather widespread gun proliferation.... with an Australian women being shot in the US yesterday I guess I suddenly feel like having a say hmmm, cant help but think about it when confronted with it as it doesn't happen hardly ever over here in Australia.

As obviously the Police naturally have to expect more guns simply because there are more guns on the street. You cannot have it both ways, everyone with guns and relaxed Police... and as Police need to be pragmatic and ahead of the unknown likely threat for their own survival so they can do their job in protecting the community - I'd say that is the sytematic problem, ie why it happens so much in so many places by people of all color to people of all color.

The expected threat in the US being so high in regards to guns would have to invite more accidental shootings.... and that is not even considering the stupid things people do on popular drugs making it hard for Police to handle a situation! Nor that the black American community is probably over represented in the the lower wealth brackets and its those wealth brackets which are more prone to drug and crime? All logically leading to a higher proportion of shootings of black males by Police on their own without the need for racism. But racism does exist in the community for sure, but it does need to remembered correlations do not imply causation, so I think those other things are at play but not really being talked about because of perhaps the US gun culture? Just offering a different perspective.

So following that theory, the very worst thing anyone could do is turn to violence or make it about racism if it was not, because racism can promote violence as we've seen by the hijacking of the potential of the BLM by rioting crowds... because whatever the intent, if violence is the outcome and problem is that Police are facing too higher risk to avoid accidental shootings, then its just going to create more accidental shootings!!! The problem of using blanket categorization to label a problem is the very same things as racism, it breeds contempt by those being generalized and categorized.... I mean listening to some the music coming out of the US, if I replaced ''white girl' with 'black girl' in some of those lyrics I'm sure it would never make it onto the air. The worst thing to combat racism is casual racism against majorities, but it seems more prevalent then I would have ever imagined.

Just thinking aloud, as in the aftermath of an reportedly unarmed (likely innocent as she rang 911 in the first place) Australian women shot point blank in the stomach by a seated Police officer while she was leaning next to the Police vehicle talking to the other officer about what she'd heard to ring 911, in the US yesterday. Sure she was white and he was black and yes it could have been racism, but 'could' is no reason to actively support or promote violence, or passively encourage it either.

Solution, if weapon proliferation is the problem, and if it continues might eventually be something like what happens in the Fifth Element, all interaction with Police is strictly controlled so they can do their job while both protecting themselves, and the community, in the face of diverse types of threats. It would be sad, to require such full compliance for all interaction, but not beyond imagination to see it in the potential future, comply or else;

Language Warning F-word;
Last edit: 6 years 4 months ago by Adder.
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