What is it like to feel gender?

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3 years 4 months ago #355522 by Adder

Eqin Ilis wrote: I believe answering your question directly is only more likely to get us off-topic. If your intent is truly to understand, I recommend: https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/summer-2016/being-there-for-nonbinary-youth


Nothing there I don't already know. I'm not sure how more off-topic we could get now as it seems to have become about what this forum area is for? Which I don't mind, its a new forum area and these things sometimes have to get worked out by trial and error.

So, to me at least, it seems this forum is already starting to ask itself what it is meant to be. That might be my mistake, but I'm not ignorant of this particular topic... perhaps some have misinterpret what I've wrote (its easy to do, even I don't understand some things I write after a while). I do note though that this topic didn't start in this forum area.

So while I note it was not originally posted in this area, I'm not sure if this forum space is meant to be a support group? I interpreted the Intersectional to be a more protected discussion. My understanding is that 'support groups' avoid upsetting people by not challenging their experiences. In contrast 'protected discussions' provide protections from people being abused for sharing their experiences. And well I'm sharing mine?

If that sort of protected but personal discussion upsets other people on a topic then perhaps this area could more usefully be a support group (or labelled and defined to work as such).

But of course if something is triggering anyone or potentially others on this topic in what I've said just point it out!? Feel free to be specific. If you don't want to know a persons deeper thoughts or reasons for something then I'd argue it should not bother you as much that they have it, else just ask ie as its a discussion forum.

But I'm far from ignorant of the topic, its just I don't define myself so much by my past or how I want others to see me, so my language is not about self identity - so my thoughts are on better defining working paradigms for deepening ones healthy experience of the particular topic. That often means adjusting language in small ways to constructively conserve the topic while adding more function and capability. As the topic poised a question which seemed to offer an exploration of the depth of the topic. I'm generally not at the Temple to 'talk about my problems' using conventional language as that is more a support group function - I'm not sure anything I've said is particularly harmful for anyone.

I mean, looking at this thread... I've used and agree with the differences in gender and sex,I've applied the lens of 'feeling' of ones gender as asked by the OP in the context of personal experience to define functional concepts of masculinity and femininity and how they function to better orientate one to feel gender, and I've even defended gender from old fashioned stereotypes!

It's really important that a minority avoids attacking itself and its allies when their members stray from the narrative. It happens a lot, it happened with feminism, it happens with race, it happens nationalism (what politics is) and all groups probably suffer it in various ways. I try not to buy into that myself, but a way to avoid it is to perhaps make this forum area more specific to a support group function? Otherwise it might run into this problem from time to time......

.... as in a support group, people would ask a question as a platform for people who want to talk about their experience of the topic in terms of as it happened, rather than why. While I've always considered discussions to be a platform for analysis, critical thinking, creative thinking etc, with the difference between intersectional, temple, and outer rim just being the measures of protections from excessive criticality or abuse.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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3 years 4 months ago #355526 by
Replied by on topic What is it like to feel gender?
You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.

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3 years 4 months ago #355527 by Rosalyn J
Hiya,

I just wanted to pop in here and say:

This space is not a space for debate (that's outer rim)

This is supposed to be a supportive space (but not a support group as we are not licensed for such).

This topic is not as cut and dry as whether or not concrete is grey. This is a matter of identity. Whether or not this features as most important for you is of no import. This topic (as we have seen) brings up strong feelings. That's why it was moved to intersectional. Our views on gender and how it feels do not just affect us.
Certain views on gender have marginalized groups of people and prevented basic civil rights and human rights from being granted. It's a loaded topic with a lot of history, a lot of misinterpretation and a lot of misinformation.

So, when a member of a marginalized group, or an ally of such, speaks, when someone opens up, when resources are given, when stories are told, its on us to hear them.

Remember what our doctrine says:

In the creed it says "I will never seek so much to be consoled as to console. To be understood as to understand. To be loved as to love.

Pax Per Ministerium
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3 years 4 months ago - 3 years 4 months ago #355529 by Adder

Eqin Ilis wrote: You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.


Well we all are born with an encoded sexual differentiation within our DNA... that is what I mean by biological sex is, as by definition it is distinct from gender. I've never suggested they are the same thing, so I'm not confusing sex and gender, but talking about the mechanisms which populate the overlap between the two.
So why am I talking about that on a topic of feeling gender.... just because they are related, or certainly seem to be, and have impacts on living as one, the other, both or a mixture.
It seems as its that which has upset you or made you concerned for the potential for others? If so I have to presume you think there is no connection between sex and gender at all, or that discussion of their relationships is taboo? The reason I ask because it seems clear that a lot of transgender (if not most) tend to align their gender with aspects of the non-birth genders sex, which is why SRS is considered a treatment for gender dysphoria where it includes body dysmorphia. But I'm not telling you your wrong, just trying to understand where your taking issue with my opinion about how we might be able to feel gender.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Adder. Reason: link to sexual differentiation wikipedia page removed by me

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3 years 4 months ago #355530 by
Replied by on topic What is it like to feel gender?
My frustration comes from the fact I've repeatedly outlined how diverse gender identity and experiences can be. Transgender is an umbrella that includes anything other than cisgender. I very clearly shared a few of the types that are not interested in transitioning along a binary view. Your insistence on returning to a binary view is very concerning to me, because the typical experience of a trans person in a conversation with someone that returns to binary views as if they are the default is an attempt at erasure or invalidation. Experiencing a binary reality for oneself and insisting that it is the only way you understand the entire topic are two very different things.

You are correct that I do not believe that there is much (if any) connection between sex and gender. The more I learn about the variety of gender experiences and the complexities of sex characteristics, the less I see evidence that they are related beyond social expectations. From a scientific standpoint, assuming the relation of sex and gender is just bad science, since even gravity must be proven beyond just seeing it everywhere. From a social standpoint, it is also hurtful. Talking about the two as intertwined assumes there is proof to support it and puts the burden on trans people to prove their experiences deserve to be recognized.

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3 years 4 months ago #355532 by rugadd
Growth is always painful, but can be very rewarding.

rugadd
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3 years 4 months ago #355533 by rugadd
Which is to say, words have meaning much like a sign post, but what direction you need to go, regardless of the sign post, is entirely dependent on where you are. You can't tell someone to go left when, where they are, they need to go right and then get mad at them when they do for not arriving.

rugadd

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3 years 4 months ago #355534 by rugadd
Which is to say I have myself in a double bind if I hinge my satisfaction on expecting someone else to understand the words I am using from the perspective that has built up in me. It can't be done and therefore I will never be satisfied with it. The closest I can get is a bit of self deception if they parrot me really well.

rugadd

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3 years 4 months ago - 3 years 4 months ago #355535 by rugadd
Humans often become wary about things they don't fully understand. They create scenarios about what it MIGHT mean, and since our brains are problem solvers, those ideas come in the form of problems. If it is a problem and someone else is causing it, they might be labeled an enemy. If they persist in being an enemy(as far as our brain is concerned) offensive measures become justified. The good intention of ending a problem by attacking the enemy often leads to suffering on both sides.

rugadd
Last edit: 3 years 4 months ago by rugadd.
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3 years 4 months ago - 3 years 4 months ago #355547 by
Replied by on topic What is it like to feel gender?
Can this be a painful experience for both sides, Yes. I am trying to be as gentle as I know how, to help mitigate that.

I think I might understand your viewpoint, rugadd. I thank you for the reminder.

Just for the sake of clarity, I ask the opinion of the group in a scenario we can imagine.

One person comes here and has their worldview challenged. When they leave the conversation, they are still seen as the gender they have always identified with. The entire world outside of this thread validates and confirms their gender. While they may never see it quite the same, the struggle is internal and not likely to affect their safety.

Another person comes here and has to defend themselves, or watch as a few well-meaning allies do their best to help, with mixed results.They return to a world that consistently challenges them to defend themselves, invalidates them, and even threatens their physical safety. They can become so exhausted with the struggle that they may not have any energy left to weigh in here, especially as they will be asked to defend every aspect of their identity, as well as provide references.

Do we truly see these two struggles as equal? I understand the need to mediate and find peaceful solutions. But if the peaceful solution is for a disadvantaged side to remain disadvantaged and not push back, then it is less a solution than a desire for them to suffer quietly. I cannot stand on the side of any who would ask that of a person struggling to survive as I have seen my trans friends do. Any who see meaning in the knight's code should understand my stance on this matter.

For this conversation to actually welcome voices and experiences outside what have already been expressed, consistently challenging the viewpoints that are new to everyone sends the very clear message that their voices and experiences are not actually welcomed. Thus my request that at the very least those here learn to use language in a constructive way. It may not show that someone can do more than parrot, but it does show that they are putting in the effort to build a space where all are truly welcome to share and be heard.
Last edit: 3 years 4 months ago by .

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