What is it like to feel gender?

I see your research article and add another:

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2020/01/23/pubertysuppression012320

Now on the grounds of your comment would you prevent teenagers access to contraceptives?

The "pill" is a hormone pill

OB1Shinobi wrote: DAMN- chiming in on the trans debate, there is no way in hell that a minor should be allowed to have sex/genital changing surgery and hormone “therapy” any more than they should be allowed to have breast implants or to take steroids. Sorry/not sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Hey you trying to get it locked or something!!? :huh: :pinch:

Yea, it wasn't really a trans discussion so it might not be a good idea to go there!! As you pointed out the OP was about gender, which includes transgender but is not limited to it. Anyway, I mean the summation of the OP's questions was "So is gender a feeling, rather than a thought or an action? If it is a feeling, how does it feel?". I think I did try to answer it, as my approach was along the lines of: given topic of feeling gender, what are potential mechanisms of ‘feeling’ gender in my opinion from my experience -> can this enable an experience of gender fluidity -> can other genders therefore be felt as a result of those mechanisms => potential wider exploration and appreciation of the topic. Unfortunately the most powerful ones in my experience have some relationship to sex, but interestingly not necessarily the sex your born with - which made me wonder about more subtle psychological constructs which in turn might indeed be more about society than physiology! Which is why its an interesting topic, it sorta straddles that space between science, psychology and society.

Ah, Ob1

The end of your article is as such "Importantly, these results should not be exaggerated in the other direction either: The correct answer is neither 0% nor 100%. Although the majority of transgender kids desist, it is not a large majority. A very substantial proportion do indeed want to transition as they get older, and we need to ensure they receive the support they will need. Despite loud, confident protestations of extremists, the science shows very clearly and very consistently that we cannot take either outcome for granted."

Given your article states as such, perhaps we should take the approach that non-trans* individuals will never understand the experience of a trans* individual. We should therefore not deprive individuals of access because of our beliefs. I speak in a general sense here.

In a similar vein, I have very strong opinions about abortion. My opinions mean only that I will not get an abortion, not that I can nor should deprive others of the right.

Rosalyn J wrote: I see your research article and add another:

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2020/01/23/pubertysuppression012320

Now on the grounds of your comment would you prevent teenagers access to contraceptives?

The "pill" is a hormone pill

This was an interesting read. I have to point out a couple of things. First, this article is based on one single study. One. Next, there is nothing in here about hormonal transition, this study was focused on “blocking puberty”. Ive known several people both male and female who would have benefited by having their puberty slowed down. I imagine that this even more applicable for trans children, needing more time to figure out who they are.

Lastly: “Those getting the treatment were more likely to....have a higher household income and have greater family support compared to those who wanted it but did not receive it.”

This rather confounds the study, doesnt jt? Was the puberty-blocker the important part, or was it that these particular kids came from families where they were they were loved and accepted?


As for your question about contraception. Somewhat tricky but not very much because there is no comparison here. Medical contraceptives (as opposed to material contraceptives, such as condoms) do result in hormonal changes but theyre not meant to permanent changes. If you think about it theyre actually meant to keep you the way that you are: not pregnant. Some people grow up way too fast and contraceptives save/protect them from the results of their bad decisions. Gender reassignment therapy is permanent. If your boy wants to wear dresses or your daughter wants to play with pistols and swords, great, let them do that. Love your children as they are. When we’re talking about irreversible hormonal interventions? Research shows that a lot of children grow out of the way that they feel about themselves while they are children.. Its ok if they dont but hey, maybe let them grow up a little bit, first? They can choose for themselves when they become an adult.

I think your opinion is based on a majority narrative which doesn't help individuals who exist as minorities.

I'm going to bring up your study again in that it stated
"A very substantial proportion do indeed want to transition as they get older, and we need to ensure they receive the support they will need."

Support they will need is of course based on the individual. Some will need hormones as a part of their support

My point still stands. I wouldn't deprive them access based on my beliefs.I only own my own body

Having said that, I feel really uncomfortable discussing this issue in such an objective way, As I said, I will never understand what it is like to be an individual in the trans* community. I consider it tantamount to an individual discussing gay conversion therapy, which I do not agree with as a Lesbian.

I'm going to go ahead and stop on that point.

Just know if you are out there and you identify as trans that I support you. That I am learning as much as I can in order to be a better ally. I hope you know that I am here for you

This topic has made me very curious as to how to increase my femininity, so I looked up youtube videos and I found some interesting tips:

I could do my hair (in a feminine style)

I could wear perfume

I could put on lotion

I could spend more time with women

I could write affirming notes (though I think that could be said for all genders)

As someone who likes women i sure hope there is more to femininity than that. Put on lotion? Jesus, the internet was supposed to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness.

OB1Shinobi wrote: As someone who likes women i sure hope there is more to femininity than that. Put on lotion? Jesus, the internet was supposed to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness.

It rubs the lotion... :silly:


I mean... I made up that one. But I assume it makes your skin soft. I'm really bad at the feminine thing.

I figured it would be more philosophical, so I've been looking around for philosophical resources:

I found this, but its pretty short: https://cac.org/feminine-and-masculine-principles-2018-04-22/

The problem there is masculine and feminine can (from some perspectives) be considered to only represent elements of those gender poles? Which would seem to reinforce gender poles that have historically been attributed to sex.

So since we're talking about gender, if doing 'female' things is femininity, its begs the question at what point is a female doing male things to be considered a female thing!? :S

But I do think its fair to assert masculinity and femininity as measures of those poles, ie attributes.... attributes which now allow for partial and mixed expression in different combination and amounts as what we call the gender spectrum. But that to me implies a relationship to sex, albeit not in a limiting way of defining what is or is not allowed or best for the individual - rather just a historical cultural way of what 'was' gender. Or is gender now a totally new field of behaviours.... is Jedi a gender? I sorta think it is but that is me going too far the other way I think!

It's almost as if the concept of masculine and feminine really don't quite fit in with the decoupling of meanings for sex and gender... unless they are just seen this way AFAIK?? Does anyone else have a better way for them to be defined?

I getted confused

I think the closer we look the more we will discover we are all humans with different circumstances as the lines between gender disappear. Exploring gender itself will lead to the more satisfying subject of "what is it like to feel human?" which is infinitely more useful and interesting.


Believing that, referring too and treating people the way they want to be is both polite AND common sense.

If I walk around insulting people all the time, that is gonna cause problems for me and it costs me nothing to say "Mrs" over "Mr" to someone I never have to speak to again if I choose. This is a fact. It is in my best interests for those around me to think good of me.

Here in Australia we recently had the marriage debate, and many of these questions featured in it.

My take at the time was this, in favour of equality.

Its just skin, skin is skin. It comes in a variety of colours and at least two configurations. and for me its significance ends there.

Its the person inside the skin that counts, and people connect with people, its clear the skin itself is pretty much irrelevant.
And spoilers... when you get old, that biological imperative to do all he fun things you can do with skin fades.
Whats left is the mind to mind connection with those in your life.

I do all the cooking here because i love the creativity of cooking, I remember a funny story.

When i was a young lad growing up in New Zealand in the 70's i loved to help my Nanna cook, she was really good at it and the day of her funeral a terrible fight broke out among her daughters over her hand written cookbook, her collection of recipes.

In school, Boys had woodwork and metal work classes, the Girls, Cooking and sewing.

The trouble i had in doing cooking instead of woodwork was perhaps just a reflection of the conservative times, And i eventually prevailed but only after going over the school masters head to the education dept and even then it was a hard sell.

So the boys all teased me, and said i must be gay....."well i said while you are stuck in the workshop with a bunch of smelly boys, im surrounded by girls, the only boy in the class" "i have them all to myself" when the logic sunk in the teasing stopped.

So i do all the cooking, and sewing. My wife mows the lawn because she likes doing it.

As i said during the marriage equality debate, it makes as little sense to object to two people being married because of the skin configuration, as i does to object because of their skin colour being different. We outgrew our prejudice against mixed race marriage and thankfully outgrew our prejudice against same sex marriage and for the very same reason.

Its just skin, no one asks for the skin they are in, its a lottery. Its the person underneath it thats the important factor.

And people should be free to connect with people. The skin they wear is about as significant as the shoes they wear imo

Standard caveat: these are my ideas on the subject, they are not "the answers" to the question.

But i reckon you could swap the word "size" for "skin" in Yoda's famous quote and it would make the same point

WoodfordJedi wrote: But i reckon you could swap the word "size" for "skin" in Yoda's famous quote and it would make the same point

What is Yoda's famous quote?

River wrote:

WoodfordJedi wrote: But i reckon you could swap the word "size" for "skin" in Yoda's famous quote and it would make the same point

What is Yoda's famous quote?

"Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm?" -- Yoda.

River wrote:

WoodfordJedi wrote: But i reckon you could swap the word "size" for "skin" in Yoda's famous quote and it would make the same point

What is Yoda's famous quote?

Size matters not, judge me by my size do you ?

Given skin is a lottery, we dont get to choose our skins.

Skin matters not, judge me by my skin do you ?

WoodfordJedi wrote:

River wrote:

WoodfordJedi wrote: But i reckon you could swap the word "size" for "skin" in Yoda's famous quote and it would make the same point

What is Yoda's famous quote?

Size matters not, judge me by my size do you ?

Given skin is a lottery, we dont get to choose our skins.

Skin matters not, judge me by my skin do you ?

Cool, thanks.
I'm just not very familiar with Star Wars, it's not really my thing, so I'm not able to just know quotes like that from a kind of oblique reference.

River wrote:

WoodfordJedi wrote:

River wrote:

WoodfordJedi wrote: But i reckon you could swap the word "size" for "skin" in Yoda's famous quote and it would make the same point

What is Yoda's famous quote?

Size matters not, judge me by my size do you ?

Given skin is a lottery, we dont get to choose our skins.

Skin matters not, judge me by my skin do you ?

Cool, thanks.
I'm just not very familiar with Star Wars, it's not really my thing, so I'm not able to just know quotes like that from a kind of oblique reference.

You are Welcome

Its a scene from the Empire Strikes back, where Yoda is training Luke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcG71T5Fs6M

The gestalt being external appearances are not relevant, and not to judge someone by them. In Yoda's case it was size, but the wisdom imo extends to skin colour, or configuration

To the question in the OP, i personally feel "me", Gender isnt how i identify "me" , the skin i wear is just a vehicle.

I'm not sure if you are still here, but thank you for this  

If you want to wear clothes of the opposite gender, more power to you. I got eyelashes as long as the Ladies but with bulky muscles; plus my height that intimidates people at times. 
Just remember that your muscular-skeletal system is built differently. Trans-Females have been getting the upper hand and winning in Female sex sports in droves as of lately; woman’s sports were to put it gently established for a reason.
Personally, it would be better to start a trans-sports division.

wrote:

If you want to wear clothes of the opposite gender, more power to you. I got eyelashes as long as the Ladies but with bulky muscles; plus my height that intimidates people at times. 
Just remember that your muscular-skeletal system is built differently. Trans-Females have been getting the upper hand and winning in Female sex sports in droves as of lately; woman’s sports were to put it gently established for a reason.
Personally, it would be better to start a trans-sports division.

Yeah, no. Jedi do not support this kind of ignorance. 

They're not 'wearing clothes of the opposite gender'. they're wearing clothes that match their gender. 

After a few years on hormones, there is negligable if any 'prior advantages' left. All these cases of trans women winning sports are highlighted because of their trans identity, not because of any records being won. How many trans people have won in the Olympics, please, remind me. 

Jedi do not agree with your statement at all. Right on the front page, "In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin."

Your ignorance on the matter isn't even what this thread is about. Its about what it feels like to feel gender. Instead, you regurgitated talking points that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. You saw the word gender and let yourself become blinded to what is, rather than what you wanted to be.