I Am

7 years 4 months ago #250779 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic I Am
I have trouble understanding why anything has to be real in order to be worshipped, revered, or used for guidance or support. Pretty much every god and every force used in these ways is fictional to all of the extents to which it would matter, and neither Chi nor Christ are an exception, and while that may stop some, it seems that reality is hardly what matters, when it comes to the value of a thing.
I also don't understand why either Star Wars is inferior to the Bible or why we would be better off having something like the latter in the first place. You say we don't have "an ancient document to guide us", as if it was a bad thing. Meanwhile, if anything, a document that is no longer subject to change or expansion, written in times fundamentally different from our own is perhaps the least appropriate thing to take for a guide, wouldn't you say so? Also, I'd call it a bit condescending to imply that our minds are so poor as to need guidance of this sort to begin with.
Needless to say I do understand your frustration with the recurring attempts to push for magical nonsense. Sometimes I like to think of myself as something of a hurdle to overcome for those who do, and to my astonishment their track record so far was abysmal. I would at any rate not say that this is something official or innate to TOTJO. Usually this kind of thing comes from the outside and in my four years here I haven't seen any of it adopted into any part of the doctrine (though I cannot speak for individual training masters' programmes). Now, is the whole meditation thing in the IP a tad superfluous? Maybe. I'd say its harm is limited in that while TOTJO provides third party materials on the topic, it does not itself explicitly endorse any of its supernatural claims.

Now, on to the Jedi Believe doctrine section cited by Br. John...
Not only does it take none of those beliefs to register to the website, even the Jedi application doesn't have a single question relating to them. So it literally takes none of these to become a Jedi by TOTJO standards.
To take a recent example, in post #250743, den385 is the latest one to admit that he does not actually believe in the Force. He does seem to be on some sort of Jedi path, according to the same post. So who is wrong about him, he or the doctrine?
This is why I find it a bit silly even bringing this up. The doctrine isn't there for us, it is for the outside visitors. None of us are required to believe all of it, few of us are encouraged to believe any of it and all of us have ideas incompatible with it to varying extents, right from the day we join and well until the day we leave. We do not represent the doctrine and the doctrine does not represent us. Indeed, this is so much the case that often a time a newcomer who only read the doctrine before they joined turns right around as they begin to interact with us, understanding that the doctrine is not even a description of what TOTJO is, let alone a prescription. This is not to mention all the users who stick to their journals instead of ever joining in on the great marketplace.

In conclusion, it appears that Streen is understanding that we are not a herd trapped behind a fence, not dogs guided by a leash. We do not collectively pretend that our gods control our every breath. We have no holy text to tell us what to think and what not to think. Does this mean we are stray? Blind and dangerous, created sick, yet with no prospect of a cure? I'd say that is a matter of interpretation. I'd then say that TOTJO Jediism is not a religion in any traditional sense. It is arguably for this reason so hard to tell a Jedi from a non-Jedi, because there is no central standard anybody has to meet, and thus nobody falls short of it. Now whether you like that is of course a different question and one we cannot help you with...
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7 years 4 months ago #250787 by
Replied by on topic I Am
There is not an actual thing, the Force. But there is the idea, the concept behind it, that is driving Jedi to be good human beings. That's all we want to be. Humble defenders of justice.

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7 years 4 months ago - 7 years 4 months ago #250805 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic I Am
Some here view the Force as the Tao, there are others who feel it is a bit different and perhaps harder to explain. Some don't believe in it at all. There is nothing wrong with any of those interpretations, as for the most part, they derive from personal experience, not what someone else has stated or written in a Bible. That means something. When everyone is not only permitted to interpret the Force and this "path" as they see, feel and live it, but share those Interpretations with the community as well, it ensures a diversity that strengthens this community as a whole...
Last edit: 7 years 4 months ago by Zenchi.
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7 years 4 months ago #250816 by
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The responses you've all given are much appreciated.

What seems to be a common belief amongst most of you is the idea of a "doctrine". This is part of the problem. The TOTJO doctrine is even more fictional than the original beliefs expressed in the Star Wars movies. What is more frustrating is that every Jedi site seems to have their own doctrine. So, which do you follow? Which one is right? These questions are rhetorical, just things you might want to ask yourselves.

Don't allow yourself to be indoctrinated. Go back to the source. That's where the answers lie.

(None of this is meant to imply any of you don't already know these things, but this message is more for those who don't)

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7 years 4 months ago - 7 years 4 months ago #250819 by
Replied by on topic I Am
Those questions seem to suggest you believe people come here, read our doctrine, disagree with some or all of it, and are persuaded to stay, to "convert", to "believe". No-one is being indoctrinated. We are here, we follow this doctrine, because it fits for us. No-one is forced to come here, and no-one forced to stay - Guest, Knight or Councillor.

I'm sure those on other sites would say similarly.
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7 years 4 months ago #250820 by
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My Idea of this Force thing...

The Force is a real thing. It is not a mystical anything, but a real living thing. The Force is the energy pulse of the Universe that is a part of everything. This is not mystical, it is proven science that states that everything in this Universe was created from the same singularity that exploded from the single point of collapsing whatever (I not a scientist). Don't confuse the Force as a religion, from the Force as an energy field created by the living Universe, or the Force as a movie mystical manipulative miticlorian count.

Having said that, the Force as the energy field of the Universe does not guide anything. The Force just exists in the Universe like electricity supplies a light bulb. It is the “driving” force that gives life, not a deity manipulating our lives.

The Force is the absents of all lies. Nothing that happens is the Universe is false. The Universal Force is the essence of balance. There is no light without dark, there is no heat without cold, there is no life without lifelessness.

You might say...”If the Force is balance, than for every truth there is a lie”. Don't confuse human concepts from Universal concepts. Lies are a human concept created for various reasons up to and including giving understanding to the unknown. The Universe just exists and goes about its day doing what it does.

We as humans feel its effect every day whether we know it or not. This is where I place my “Jediism”. I am a Jedi trying to connect with the Universal energy. To find my understanding of my place in the Universe and to rid myself of the lies that have blinded me. The dark side of the Force is this lie we as humans have created for ourselves. The light side of the Force is the removal of the lie and to see all things in the truth as the Universe sees it.

This is my belief and understanding which has developed over the last 6 years of study in the philosophies of Tao, Buddha, Christ, Samurai, Knights of Malta, Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts, Scientists, My Wife, You, and everyone else that has given their time to talk to me.

Jediism and the Temple of the Jedi Order are the Way and the Place in which this Journey can be accomplished.

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