I Am

*Agent Smith voice*

I'd like to share a revelation with you that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify my spirituality, and I realized I'm not really a Jedi.

*end Agent Smith voice*

This is being written with the understanding that I could and probably will offend some people here.

I'm actually writing this prior to posting it, in a document so that I can properly extrapolate what needs to be said. In all seriousness, I want to express something that has occurred to me over the past 48 hours: The whole idea of the Force is purely fiction, and it has been thus far only been spoken of based on a belief in it, whether or not there is really any proof that it exists. We have no bible, no ancient documents to guide us, only a vague understanding that has been spoon fed to us by a guy telling a science-fiction story.

This isn't to discount ideas such as Chi or the Tao, as both are concepts older than Christ himself. The point I am trying to make here has more to do with the mystical nonsense that we've clung to over, at least, the last 20 years (roughly the age of the online Jedi community). Perhaps people CAN levitate things with their minds. Perhaps people CAN communicate over vast distances. Perhaps people CAN speak to the dead. But what are we embracing here? What are we worshiping? Who and what are we putting on a pedestal? What is this religion promoting?

If there is no Force, then what are we? Jedi? Perhaps, as the word's origin seems to suggest the idea of “knowing” and “knowledge” (“Jedediah”, which is the name given to Solomon by God at his birth). But, as has been said many times over the past 20 years, we don't have lightsabers, we can't manipulate the “force”. And we don't run around saving people, upholding peace and justice. Some people do, but they're called police officers and soldiers. I suppose if one of them had miraculous powers and held a glowing laser sword, then maybe THEY would be called Jedi.

But who are we? What right do we have as a people to call ourselves by a name that we cannot possibly hope to live up to? What we can do is be good people, certainly. Spread light in our lives. Be kind to those around us. That's what the world needs.

I haven't spent much time here lately, and I have to admit to feeling pretty good about it. I've spent my time doing the things I just mentioned above. It is profoundly more important than prattling on about philosophy, and asking inane questions. I've done my share of both, so I'm not more innocent of it than any of you.

But I am not here to tell you what to do. I'm suggesting you figure out for yourself what you could be doing and accomplishing, rather than spending so much time in Jedi forums. I realize this seems ironic or hypocritical being that I am, right now, in a Jedi forum. I just wanted to give you all something to consider, some important questions to ask yourself.

Like I said at the beginning, this may have offended you, and I'm sorry you may feel that way, but these things needed to be said. I feel pushed to discuss this. No one is saying that I am right and you are wrong, but do please consider these words.

Ive said it before, I will say it again, and I will say it now....

"Dont confuse my on-line presence with a lack of physical world action..."



Thank you for sharing...

1. you cannot tell me what to do
2. i want to try to live up to being a Jedi
3. i dont care if you think i cannot be a Jedi
4. you have to do your thing in life and follow your path
5. i hope you will be very happy as i would hope for everyone
6. even if i am the only Jedi left on earth , no one can tell me what i am , or what i am not
7. ok bye

Oh Streen, you pot stirrer you. I commend you on your willingness to challenge our views on if we are really Jedi. It is not something that many would do, especially as tactfully as you do. I felt no offense at your statements.

That said, I am a Jedi. I have never associated real life Jedi with mystical powers. I wouldn't say no if I thought I could actually have them, but I don't personally believe that they exist. Those are not the reasons that I call myself a Jedi. I call myself a Jedi because I firmly believe in Jediism as it is taught here at TOTJO. This place and it's philosophies align the best with my own and as such I have adopted it's nomenclature. If nothing about this place changed but it's name chances are I would use whatever name they decided to use. What's taught here is what I am, and what's taught here is Jediism.

As for "prattling on about philosophy, and asking inane questions," well, that's just a good way to pass the time when I'm not out doing other stuff. I don't spend much time here when I'm not at work (don't tell my boss :laugh:), and when I do it's usually late at night and there's not much else to do. My time spent here is usually between other things when my only other option is to sit bored at my desk. Being more helpful in the community is something that I am currently working on but I promise you, unless it involves a major career change chances are it won't impact my time here at all. I can do many things and be in many places, especially when one of those places is virtual. :laugh:

I am glad that you seem to be happy with the direction you are moving, just don't expect the rest of us to follow you.

It seems you're beginning to realize what we're actually doing here and why, when talking about what you're realizing about yourself.

It also seems you're beginning to take a step toward realizing what the actual belief system of many of us here actually do have, when shedding the one's you speak of here as discounted.

Keep lifting that veil of "mystical force wielding super heroes here to save the world", and you might realize what has actually been going on here all along.

I am grateful for your opinions. I am grateful for your stand. In a world of what I tend to call "sheeple" the act of action is not seen to often. I takes much more person to stand for something, the old saying you gotta stand for something or, fall for anything. If you continue to seek you will find. Any time spent searching for wisdom will never go void. I am glad you tried the Jedi way in your own path. Some paths I find in my life don't mesh with my own focus the more I find out and learn more about them. The best is to be aware and continue to grow. Do not grow stale friend! Keep the fire in you burning. Be well and continue to build you up friend, its so worth it!

I really get where you're coming from. It does seem off. I'm struggling with the IP currently, because I'm supposed to write my thoughts on everything. "Describe your understanding of the three tenets in their relationship to each other". I think the Doctrine puts it in better words than I ever could. How is this training? The only thing I could think of would be to nitpick and try to find problems in the doctrine to pass the lesson, but honestly it all looks ok to me.

What's so bad about imitating fiction? I think we should all consider that. We shouldn't try to distance ourselves from the Jedi in the movies, because that's where we come from, but we should try to make a productive religion that solves problems in real life. YES, MAKE A PHYSICAL TEMPLE. Don't just waste your day arguing and nitpicking away at questions people have been trying to solve since the dawn of civilization. I've tried to come out and have a reasonable discussion about telekinesis, AKA FORCE MANIPULATION, and I've been mocked. Open your minds to new ideas.

I think Wicca would be a perfect example here. I'm aware that there are some Wiccans here at TOTJO. Some Wiccans call themselves witches, others don't. But what they all have in common, they practice witchcraft. We, on the other hand, don't all follow the doctrine yet all identify as Jedi, at least those who consider themselves part of the temple. To further confuse things, we have differing beliefs about what makes a Jedi, or even what the Force is.

Streen wrote: The whole idea of the Force is purely fiction

I'm not sure that we're all thinking of the same Force here...? Semantics Strikes [strike]Again[/strike] Back... :silly:

That would be a really terrible movie, wouldn't it? :pinch:

Streen wrote: This isn't to discount ideas such as Chi or the Tao, as both are concepts older than Christ himself.

Ah, good, excellent!

Streen wrote: The point I am trying to make here has more to do with the mystical nonsense that we've clung to over, at least, the last 20 years (roughly the age of the online Jedi community).

No mystical nonsense to see here (or anywhere at TOTJO, as far as I can really see)...move along...

Who is 'we', anyway?

Streen wrote: But who are we? What right do we have as a people to call ourselves by a name that we cannot possibly hope to live up to?

We are Jedi who have every right to use that name/word to mean whatever we want it to.

My name is Victoria, which traditionally means victory/victorious. Do I not have every right to call myself Victoria regardless of whether or not I happen to chasing victory in that moment? Can I not use the name as a label to describe the unique human being that I hope I am? Maybe we should all have to keep changing our names to accurately reflect our thoughts and behaviour at the time (in accordance with the most common public perception of the meaning of those names, of course).

The question that you appear to be asking is not so much who are we as who are you?

And I can't tell you the answer to that, but I do know that you are Streen - and I wont be trying to tell you what that means, because I respect your right to decide that for yourself.

Those that can do. Those that can't don't.

I don't remember us ever being about worshiping anyone. And if someone wants to be on a pedestal (I'd never risk my life on one. There's not enough between me and the ground.) that's their right - assuming they have a valid license and insurance.

A Jedi is busy enough being (and learning to be) a Guardian of Peace and Justice without having to worry about The Force. A good Jedi does not need a Lightsaber - she gets the job done with a stick. A great Jedi does not even need the stick.

There's nothing to worship here. There's ideas to revere though.

Jedi Believe

In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment, including the death penalty.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

In the ethic of reciprocity, and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion, and over time.

In the positive influence of spiritual growth and awareness on society.

In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.

In the separation of religion and government and the freedoms of speech, association, and expression.




So close to Jesus we're mistaken for co-joined twins.

Well we do have the Jediism Guide Book but it's talking about the philosophy.
Personaly I joined Temple of the Jedi Order based on the community and the good morals that we stand for.

When it comes to the force I don't think of it as a litteral force that flows in all of us.

On the front of the Temple of the Jedi Order website it says ''Jedi at this site are not the same as those portrayed within the Star Wars franchise''.

So what I try to do is to remove the Star Wars franshise from my mind when I am here.

Ryder wrote: I really get where you're coming from. It does seem off. I'm struggling with the IP currently, because I'm supposed to write my thoughts on everything. "Describe your understanding of the three tenets in their relationship to each other". I think the Doctrine puts it in better words than I ever could. How is this training? The only thing I could think of would be to nitpick and try to find problems in the doctrine to pass the lesson, but honestly it all looks ok to me.

The training that we do here is core to the reason many of us have chosen to call ourselves "Jedi". I do not seek to imitate the fictional Jedi. Instead, I look to the source material that inspired the fictional characters to begin with. The Jedi were not created by George Lucas out of thin air. They were inspired by the Tao (Yoda), Bushido (Vader), Jesus (Anakin), Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Greek mythology, Campbell's "Hero's Journey" and a hundred other sources including the teachings of Gandhi and MLK, Jr about non-violence.

Our Doctrine here is also inspired by many of those same sources, but in an effort to avoid becoming "sheeple", we ask each and every Novice to approach the material from their own perspective and give their own thoughts on it. If that means you agree with the Doctrine completely, great! If you think parts of it are horse manure, that is okay too. We simply ask that you explain why you feel that way.

As we grow and learn about ourselves, we acquire tools that allow us to be more effective instruments of the Force in our daily lives. We learn to use our strengths to help others and our community and we recognize areas where we are weak and we seek to improve. The goal should be to make your own life and the lives of others around you better, to work toward peace and justice, and protect those who cannot protect themselves. And isn't that what the fictional Jedi were all about?

I do not need to mind trick people or carry a laser sword to be Jedi. I have accomplished great things despite the fact that I haven't been able to "Force Jump" my way through life. I am a Jedi. The name seems quite fitting for what we (or at least I) do here, in the sense that I share the same goals as those of the fictional Jedi and I draw wisdom and knowledge from the source material that gave birth to the characters.

If this doesn't work for you, that is okay. I don't expect anyone else to grant their approval of my choices. Our paths take us where we are meant to go. Mine is the path of a Jedi.

* I've been through many crisises here myself and I do understand you, @Streen.

* Personally, I don't believe in the Force. I have experience and trust.

* I think that Jedi path is not centered on the Force. It's centered on the feat. And philosophy etc is 90% procrastination.

* What I believe in is Life, perseverant and creative choice. Jedi way is creative as a philosophy, why else use it?

* When I registered, I decided that even if everyone here was a pathetic liar, I'll be true to myself & my Jedi path.

I have trouble understanding why anything has to be real in order to be worshipped, revered, or used for guidance or support. Pretty much every god and every force used in these ways is fictional to all of the extents to which it would matter, and neither Chi nor Christ are an exception, and while that may stop some, it seems that reality is hardly what matters, when it comes to the value of a thing.
I also don't understand why either Star Wars is inferior to the Bible or why we would be better off having something like the latter in the first place. You say we don't have "an ancient document to guide us", as if it was a bad thing. Meanwhile, if anything, a document that is no longer subject to change or expansion, written in times fundamentally different from our own is perhaps the least appropriate thing to take for a guide, wouldn't you say so? Also, I'd call it a bit condescending to imply that our minds are so poor as to need guidance of this sort to begin with.
Needless to say I do understand your frustration with the recurring attempts to push for magical nonsense. Sometimes I like to think of myself as something of a hurdle to overcome for those who do, and to my astonishment their track record so far was abysmal. I would at any rate not say that this is something official or innate to TOTJO. Usually this kind of thing comes from the outside and in my four years here I haven't seen any of it adopted into any part of the doctrine (though I cannot speak for individual training masters' programmes). Now, is the whole meditation thing in the IP a tad superfluous? Maybe. I'd say its harm is limited in that while TOTJO provides third party materials on the topic, it does not itself explicitly endorse any of its supernatural claims.

Now, on to the Jedi Believe doctrine section cited by Br. John...
Not only does it take none of those beliefs to register to the website, even the Jedi application doesn't have a single question relating to them. So it literally takes none of these to become a Jedi by TOTJO standards.
To take a recent example, in post #250743, den385 is the latest one to admit that he does not actually believe in the Force. He does seem to be on some sort of Jedi path, according to the same post. So who is wrong about him, he or the doctrine?
This is why I find it a bit silly even bringing this up. The doctrine isn't there for us, it is for the outside visitors. None of us are required to believe all of it, few of us are encouraged to believe any of it and all of us have ideas incompatible with it to varying extents, right from the day we join and well until the day we leave. We do not represent the doctrine and the doctrine does not represent us. Indeed, this is so much the case that often a time a newcomer who only read the doctrine before they joined turns right around as they begin to interact with us, understanding that the doctrine is not even a description of what TOTJO is, let alone a prescription. This is not to mention all the users who stick to their journals instead of ever joining in on the great marketplace.

In conclusion, it appears that Streen is understanding that we are not a herd trapped behind a fence, not dogs guided by a leash. We do not collectively pretend that our gods control our every breath. We have no holy text to tell us what to think and what not to think. Does this mean we are stray? Blind and dangerous, created sick, yet with no prospect of a cure? I'd say that is a matter of interpretation. I'd then say that TOTJO Jediism is not a religion in any traditional sense. It is arguably for this reason so hard to tell a Jedi from a non-Jedi, because there is no central standard anybody has to meet, and thus nobody falls short of it. Now whether you like that is of course a different question and one we cannot help you with...

There is not an actual thing, the Force. But there is the idea, the concept behind it, that is driving Jedi to be good human beings. That's all we want to be. Humble defenders of justice.

Some here view the Force as the Tao, there are others who feel it is a bit different and perhaps harder to explain. Some don't believe in it at all. There is nothing wrong with any of those interpretations, as for the most part, they derive from personal experience, not what someone else has stated or written in a Bible. That means something. When everyone is not only permitted to interpret the Force and this "path" as they see, feel and live it, but share those Interpretations with the community as well, it ensures a diversity that strengthens this community as a whole...

The responses you've all given are much appreciated.

What seems to be a common belief amongst most of you is the idea of a "doctrine". This is part of the problem. The TOTJO doctrine is even more fictional than the original beliefs expressed in the Star Wars movies. What is more frustrating is that every Jedi site seems to have their own doctrine. So, which do you follow? Which one is right? These questions are rhetorical, just things you might want to ask yourselves.

Don't allow yourself to be indoctrinated. Go back to the source. That's where the answers lie.

(None of this is meant to imply any of you don't already know these things, but this message is more for those who don't)

Those questions seem to suggest you believe people come here, read our doctrine, disagree with some or all of it, and are persuaded to stay, to "convert", to "believe". No-one is being indoctrinated. We are here, we follow this doctrine, because it fits for us. No-one is forced to come here, and no-one forced to stay - Guest, Knight or Councillor.

I'm sure those on other sites would say similarly.

My Idea of this Force thing...

The Force is a real thing. It is not a mystical anything, but a real living thing. The Force is the energy pulse of the Universe that is a part of everything. This is not mystical, it is proven science that states that everything in this Universe was created from the same singularity that exploded from the single point of collapsing whatever (I not a scientist). Don't confuse the Force as a religion, from the Force as an energy field created by the living Universe, or the Force as a movie mystical manipulative miticlorian count.

Having said that, the Force as the energy field of the Universe does not guide anything. The Force just exists in the Universe like electricity supplies a light bulb. It is the “driving” force that gives life, not a deity manipulating our lives.

The Force is the absents of all lies. Nothing that happens is the Universe is false. The Universal Force is the essence of balance. There is no light without dark, there is no heat without cold, there is no life without lifelessness.

You might say...”If the Force is balance, than for every truth there is a lie”. Don't confuse human concepts from Universal concepts. Lies are a human concept created for various reasons up to and including giving understanding to the unknown. The Universe just exists and goes about its day doing what it does.

We as humans feel its effect every day whether we know it or not. This is where I place my “Jediism”. I am a Jedi trying to connect with the Universal energy. To find my understanding of my place in the Universe and to rid myself of the lies that have blinded me. The dark side of the Force is this lie we as humans have created for ourselves. The light side of the Force is the removal of the lie and to see all things in the truth as the Universe sees it.

This is my belief and understanding which has developed over the last 6 years of study in the philosophies of Tao, Buddha, Christ, Samurai, Knights of Malta, Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts, Scientists, My Wife, You, and everyone else that has given their time to talk to me.

Jediism and the Temple of the Jedi Order are the Way and the Place in which this Journey can be accomplished.

Streen wrote: The responses you've all given are much appreciated.

What seems to be a common belief amongst most of you is the idea of a "doctrine". This is part of the problem. The TOTJO doctrine is even more fictional than the original beliefs expressed in the Star Wars movies. What is more frustrating is that every Jedi site seems to have their own doctrine. So, which do you follow? Which one is right? These questions are rhetorical, just things you might want to ask yourselves.

Don't allow yourself to be indoctrinated. Go back to the source. That's where the answers lie.

(None of this is meant to imply any of you don't already know these things, but this message is more for those who don't)

You're getting warmer!

My approach to the Force is a little more mystical than Star Wars ever got around to. The contemplations that have led there have distilled this Jedi's perspective into some pretty fine "goo" making it so that I am quite dependent on the most trusted "prickles" to let me be cogent at all ...

That said, it surprises me, Streen, that you would bring up the topic at all. You've been around the community for quite enough time - with considerable involvement also - to know quite well that the Jedi confession as is practised in the TotJO is certainly not dogmatic, prescriptive spirituality. It is a rigorous self-exploration involving accidental adventures, climbing and falling and climbing again, failures, forgetting, remembering .... and so forth. Where the hell do you see a light-sabre in any of that ?

Our IP is comparative mythology and perspective shifting, with a little self-discovery and expression thrown in (because in our post-modern social organisation many people don't know what they think) ; our apprenticeships are accompanied explorations of that phenomenological terrain discovered thereby ... Why would anyone be trying to develop psy "powers" ? Certainly when many of the mystics up through the ages have cautioned against such delirium ?

You are certainly right to caution anyone thinking that they can become the very likeness of Yoda by signing up to any of the Jedi sites that they may need a consultation (either the psychologist or the dermatologist - whichever). But as to the supportive community for getting out of the post-modern mentality box ("I must obey my master $£€"), we're a pretty good company to be in. Many of the Jedi communities are ....

I'm the Pastor of this church. I have never read even one of the Star Wars Extended Universe books. Not ever. It would be difficult for me to maintain my position here if Star Wars were truly "canon". Hell, the materials in the IP aren't even "canon". The Jedi way is unique for the individual taking her/his steps toward knowing what her/his own life is really about. That is about it. It involves much more authentic feeling, expression and mistake-making than could ever be accounted for in the whole corpus of human literature. Stories only help to understand, but they are not the pre-recording of anyone's life. That is its own experience in its own time.

So, whether you want to call yourself a Jedi any more or not, you are still alive, here & now, and are very welcome to explore what it is to be a human being in a vibrant and ever-changing, ever-evolving world with us .... even reading a Star Wars book, if you like. That is more what we're doing, and honestly, it seems we're doing it sort of well.