Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

I just wanted to give an update here and thank Kit for starting this thread and Manami for the idea of a Pax Templi. We are working on such a document to clarify rules of behavior, the rights and expectations of members, and the procedure when such things fail. It will also contain a list of who to go to for assistance in Temple matters.

I just want the membership to know that the Council hears your requests and does move to take action on them when we are able. I hope your holidays are going well and wish you the best for the coming new year.

I want to thank you all so much for your input. There's been a great deal of good things to come out of this already! And to be honest, I did expect to have to moderate this a lot more than I did. I really greatly appreciate all of your words and care here.

I've spent some time reflecting on what's been said and what I feel on this place. I don't expect us to be a replacement for a professional Mental Health doctor. We're not here to provide diagnosis or medication. BUT I do sincerely feel we are here to support one another. As someone who battles my own often crippling mental and physical conditions, there are three things that help. And one is something anyone can do.

1. An ear listening with compassion. "Oh man, that sucks, I'm so sorry. That's gotta be rough" This is half of the help I need sometimes.
2. Someone who can empathize with me. "I've been there, I can relate, you're not alone."
3. Tips and tricks that has helped others. (as long as it's only offered when asked for lol)

Time and Spoons permitting, #1 is something anyone here can do. I'd love to foster a community where I'd feel comfortable again that nearly anyone could come and find ears to listen, not get batted down and told to Cowboy Up.

I'm not saying we should accept abuse from people who are clearly out of order. But there are many constructive ways that we can redirect that.

If someone says to me "I'm feeling offended by what you said." it's a chance for me to reexamine myself and my words. We can then have a conversation between us by what I meant and how it was received. Sometimes, this means I learn more and can adjust the way I communicate and refrain from saying what I did how I did. Other times, I understand that my words can be taken incorrectly and in this specific case, I don't need to change. But this all requires two things. Productive communication between the two individuals, and serious compassionate introspection. The offended party isn't always right, but neither is the offender.


I'm loving the idea of clear guidelines. Both for what we offer and what we expect our community to follow when we're interacting with each other. I think both these will take a lot of trial and error, so be sure to be communicative with us on what's working and what's not.

I'm really sorry I'm low on spoons today, someone said that the more we learn about our own path, the more we realize there's nothing set in stone or black-and-white. This is where having a nice support community (us) comes in. "By the gods! I just had a shift in awareness and lost my anchor, can someone toss me a lifesaver?" (*snicker* when I was a kid, I thought when they said "lightsaber" they were saying "lifesaver") We can only do so much hand-holding, and I'm not asking anyone who's not willing to do that to do it anyways.... I lost my train of thought. Just support each other ok?

I'll come back again when I've got more brain power to spare. Thanks again everyone

Thank you again, Kit, for starting this dialogue. Many great points have been raised and provided us with some specific things to focus on.

For the record, I can do a better job of #1 and #2, especially considering I HAVE been there, I CAN relate, and others have supported me during my health struggles. I'll try harder to return that compassion when I think it will be helpful.

Use your spoons wisely, my friend, and don't apologize for putting yourself first when you need to. Your contributions are always worth the wait, and I can say that you rarely leave us waiting long.

I do need to point something out though and forgive me for bringing it back. We need more accountability for our actions here. It's not just a "I did it, I won't happen again" It's more of like "I did it, I realize I did this, I will work to not have it happen again and will work on bettering myself". That one issue that we had a week or so ago, there was a private chat to try to work it (amongst other issues) and the thing went nowhere. All I saw was finger pointing and one knight talking bad about another knight and his apprentice (I have a screencap of it). We need too work things out here, not just talk about it and then let it go like it never occurred. What I saw angered me so much, I left the chat and stepped away from the Temple for a day or two. My point is this: when something happens, address it, don't sugar coat it, if it can be resolved in PM, do it. As it was mentioned here, we don't need to make EVERYTHING public, y'all.

Also another big thing....what happened to our Knights? You can count the Knights that log on everyday! we need to do our best as apprentices, as novices, as members, to try and say "Hey, if these people want to remain their ranks, maybe they should show up, huh?" I see a lot of Knights that have disappeared the past few months. Every once in a while, they pop in but then they leave. The Knights are supposed to be the ones that we look up to, the ones who help lead this place....but where are they? Granted, I know we can't force people to come and log on, but come on! You worked hard to gain that title, flaunt it and do what a Knight does best!

vladucard wrote: I do need to point something out though and forgive me for bringing it back. We need more accountability for our actions here. It's not just a "I did it, I won't happen again" It's more of like "I did it, I realize I did this, I will work to not have it happen again and will work on bettering myself". That one issue that we had a week or so ago, there was a private chat to try to work it (amongst other issues) and the thing went nowhere. All I saw was finger pointing and one knight talking bad about another knight and his apprentice (I have a screencap of it). We need too work things out here, not just talk about it and then let it go like it never occurred. What I saw angered me so much, I left the chat and stepped away from the Temple for a day or two. My point is this: when something happens, address it, don't sugar coat it, if it can be resolved in PM, do it. As it was mentioned here, we don't need to make EVERYTHING public, y'all.

Also another big thing....what happened to our Knights? You can count the Knights that log on everyday! we need to do our best as apprentices, as novices, as members, to try and say "Hey, if these people want to remain their ranks, maybe they should show up, huh?" I see a lot of Knights that have disappeared the past few months. Every once in a while, they pop in but then they leave. The Knights are supposed to be the ones that we look up to, the ones who help lead this place....but where are they? Granted, I know we can't force people to come and log on, but come on! You worked hard to gain that title, flaunt it and do what a Knight does best!

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't flaunt it (I was "assertive" before I'd ever established an apprenticeship. I don't think it's something that should be shown off, I had a problem with the rank bars under my avatar when I was advisor. With that said, I whole heartedly agree with the rest of what you have stated Vlad...

I have many times in the past attempted to make activity a requirement for Knights, and was met with rather strong opposition every time. It's something I've given up on sadly enough, I don't agree with the majority of our Knights and have even left our Skype group as a result, again. Accountability is something that looks good on paper, but just has never held up here plain n simple, as the philosophy here has always been "do what I say, not what I do" from those in charge...

My actions as of late were inexcusable, and I am genuinely making attempts to prevent my reacting in contrast to responding. Makes it especially difficult when trolls are allowed to make personal attacks on one of our own. Camaraderie is only an idea when it's convenient, every other incident it's every man for himself...

vladucard wrote: I do need to point something out though and forgive me for bringing it back. We need more accountability for our actions here. It's not just a "I did it, I won't happen again" It's more of like "I did it, I realize I did this, I will work to not have it happen again and will work on bettering myself". That one issue that we had a week or so ago, there was a private chat to try to work it (amongst other issues) and the thing went nowhere. All I saw was finger pointing and one knight talking bad about another knight and his apprentice (I have a screencap of it). We need too work things out here, not just talk about it and then let it go like it never occurred. What I saw angered me so much, I left the chat and stepped away from the Temple for a day or two. My point is this: when something happens, address it, don't sugar coat it, if it can be resolved in PM, do it. As it was mentioned here, we don't need to make EVERYTHING public, y'all.

Also another big thing....what happened to our Knights? You can count the Knights that log on everyday! we need to do our best as apprentices, as novices, as members, to try and say "Hey, if these people want to remain their ranks, maybe they should show up, huh?" I see a lot of Knights that have disappeared the past few months. Every once in a while, they pop in but then they leave. The Knights are supposed to be the ones that we look up to, the ones who help lead this place....but where are they? Granted, I know we can't force people to come and log on, but come on! You worked hard to gain that title, flaunt it and do what a Knight does best!

Not all knights are the same and not all have the avalibility as some . That being said - some - I only speak for my self are avalible if any one ever needs. You can't reach us at contact clergy for confidentiality if need or directly pm us - aka me . My inbox is still open and willing and avalible ! I don't speak for every knight . I can't and won't . I can only offer my oath and my willingness ! Force be with us as we all seek the Force we share and serve !

If I had any concern for this Temple it would be everyone's preoccupation with how everyone else is acting.(see what I did there? Even I am not immune!)

Concern yourself with self reflection. Never push "post" until you leave it alone and come back and read it again later. Question your motives. What do you hope to gain by posting what your about to post? Attack your own arguments. Recognize the ones fueled by bad experiences. Question what your assuming just by speaking up. Consider, always, that you are missing information. If you get good at it, you start to know what you need to know. Always give the benefit of the doubt to others...there simply is not enough information to assume malice.

If you want to call someone out, call yourself out.

rugadd wrote: If you want to call someone out, call yourself out.

Love this. Several times over the past 48 hours I've found myself responding very angrily... but deleting the post before hitting post. Sometimes I just see it's my own ego talking, and not myself.

Love this lil nugget of wisdom.

"Always give the benefit of the doubt to others...there simply is not enough information to assume malice."


Words, just words...

You haven't seen how we pass policy here, you've not seen how people conduct themselves behind closed doors, I have. As always, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove, and after six years knowing people working behind the curtain (Perris, Brenna, Relish, Marta Lina) and then only to have every thing validated when making advisor....

I can prove quite a bit, I am, however honor bound not to resort to such tactics. The longer I stay, the more I come to the stark conclusion staring me in the face that I simply do not belong....

Arisaig wrote:

rugadd wrote: If you want to call someone out, call yourself out.

Love this. Several times over the past 48 hours I've found myself responding very angrily... but deleting the post before hitting post. Sometimes I just see it's my own ego talking, and not myself.

Love this lil nugget of wisdom.

Very well said! We must be accountable for all our actions so what better way to prevent that than by not doing it in the first place? (err, I mean, the negative ones!).