Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

Thank you again, Kit, for starting this dialogue. Many great points have been raised and provided us with some specific things to focus on.

For the record, I can do a better job of #1 and #2, especially considering I HAVE been there, I CAN relate, and others have supported me during my health struggles. I'll try harder to return that compassion when I think it will be helpful.

Use your spoons wisely, my friend, and don't apologize for putting yourself first when you need to. Your contributions are always worth the wait, and I can say that you rarely leave us waiting long.

I do need to point something out though and forgive me for bringing it back. We need more accountability for our actions here. It's not just a "I did it, I won't happen again" It's more of like "I did it, I realize I did this, I will work to not have it happen again and will work on bettering myself". That one issue that we had a week or so ago, there was a private chat to try to work it (amongst other issues) and the thing went nowhere. All I saw was finger pointing and one knight talking bad about another knight and his apprentice (I have a screencap of it). We need too work things out here, not just talk about it and then let it go like it never occurred. What I saw angered me so much, I left the chat and stepped away from the Temple for a day or two. My point is this: when something happens, address it, don't sugar coat it, if it can be resolved in PM, do it. As it was mentioned here, we don't need to make EVERYTHING public, y'all.

Also another big thing....what happened to our Knights? You can count the Knights that log on everyday! we need to do our best as apprentices, as novices, as members, to try and say "Hey, if these people want to remain their ranks, maybe they should show up, huh?" I see a lot of Knights that have disappeared the past few months. Every once in a while, they pop in but then they leave. The Knights are supposed to be the ones that we look up to, the ones who help lead this place....but where are they? Granted, I know we can't force people to come and log on, but come on! You worked hard to gain that title, flaunt it and do what a Knight does best!

vladucard wrote: I do need to point something out though and forgive me for bringing it back. We need more accountability for our actions here. It's not just a "I did it, I won't happen again" It's more of like "I did it, I realize I did this, I will work to not have it happen again and will work on bettering myself". That one issue that we had a week or so ago, there was a private chat to try to work it (amongst other issues) and the thing went nowhere. All I saw was finger pointing and one knight talking bad about another knight and his apprentice (I have a screencap of it). We need too work things out here, not just talk about it and then let it go like it never occurred. What I saw angered me so much, I left the chat and stepped away from the Temple for a day or two. My point is this: when something happens, address it, don't sugar coat it, if it can be resolved in PM, do it. As it was mentioned here, we don't need to make EVERYTHING public, y'all.

Also another big thing....what happened to our Knights? You can count the Knights that log on everyday! we need to do our best as apprentices, as novices, as members, to try and say "Hey, if these people want to remain their ranks, maybe they should show up, huh?" I see a lot of Knights that have disappeared the past few months. Every once in a while, they pop in but then they leave. The Knights are supposed to be the ones that we look up to, the ones who help lead this place....but where are they? Granted, I know we can't force people to come and log on, but come on! You worked hard to gain that title, flaunt it and do what a Knight does best!

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't flaunt it (I was "assertive" before I'd ever established an apprenticeship. I don't think it's something that should be shown off, I had a problem with the rank bars under my avatar when I was advisor. With that said, I whole heartedly agree with the rest of what you have stated Vlad...

I have many times in the past attempted to make activity a requirement for Knights, and was met with rather strong opposition every time. It's something I've given up on sadly enough, I don't agree with the majority of our Knights and have even left our Skype group as a result, again. Accountability is something that looks good on paper, but just has never held up here plain n simple, as the philosophy here has always been "do what I say, not what I do" from those in charge...

My actions as of late were inexcusable, and I am genuinely making attempts to prevent my reacting in contrast to responding. Makes it especially difficult when trolls are allowed to make personal attacks on one of our own. Camaraderie is only an idea when it's convenient, every other incident it's every man for himself...

vladucard wrote: I do need to point something out though and forgive me for bringing it back. We need more accountability for our actions here. It's not just a "I did it, I won't happen again" It's more of like "I did it, I realize I did this, I will work to not have it happen again and will work on bettering myself". That one issue that we had a week or so ago, there was a private chat to try to work it (amongst other issues) and the thing went nowhere. All I saw was finger pointing and one knight talking bad about another knight and his apprentice (I have a screencap of it). We need too work things out here, not just talk about it and then let it go like it never occurred. What I saw angered me so much, I left the chat and stepped away from the Temple for a day or two. My point is this: when something happens, address it, don't sugar coat it, if it can be resolved in PM, do it. As it was mentioned here, we don't need to make EVERYTHING public, y'all.

Also another big thing....what happened to our Knights? You can count the Knights that log on everyday! we need to do our best as apprentices, as novices, as members, to try and say "Hey, if these people want to remain their ranks, maybe they should show up, huh?" I see a lot of Knights that have disappeared the past few months. Every once in a while, they pop in but then they leave. The Knights are supposed to be the ones that we look up to, the ones who help lead this place....but where are they? Granted, I know we can't force people to come and log on, but come on! You worked hard to gain that title, flaunt it and do what a Knight does best!

Not all knights are the same and not all have the avalibility as some . That being said - some - I only speak for my self are avalible if any one ever needs. You can't reach us at contact clergy for confidentiality if need or directly pm us - aka me . My inbox is still open and willing and avalible ! I don't speak for every knight . I can't and won't . I can only offer my oath and my willingness ! Force be with us as we all seek the Force we share and serve !

If I had any concern for this Temple it would be everyone's preoccupation with how everyone else is acting.(see what I did there? Even I am not immune!)

Concern yourself with self reflection. Never push "post" until you leave it alone and come back and read it again later. Question your motives. What do you hope to gain by posting what your about to post? Attack your own arguments. Recognize the ones fueled by bad experiences. Question what your assuming just by speaking up. Consider, always, that you are missing information. If you get good at it, you start to know what you need to know. Always give the benefit of the doubt to others...there simply is not enough information to assume malice.

If you want to call someone out, call yourself out.

rugadd wrote: If you want to call someone out, call yourself out.

Love this. Several times over the past 48 hours I've found myself responding very angrily... but deleting the post before hitting post. Sometimes I just see it's my own ego talking, and not myself.

Love this lil nugget of wisdom.

"Always give the benefit of the doubt to others...there simply is not enough information to assume malice."


Words, just words...

You haven't seen how we pass policy here, you've not seen how people conduct themselves behind closed doors, I have. As always, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove, and after six years knowing people working behind the curtain (Perris, Brenna, Relish, Marta Lina) and then only to have every thing validated when making advisor....

I can prove quite a bit, I am, however honor bound not to resort to such tactics. The longer I stay, the more I come to the stark conclusion staring me in the face that I simply do not belong....

Arisaig wrote:

rugadd wrote: If you want to call someone out, call yourself out.

Love this. Several times over the past 48 hours I've found myself responding very angrily... but deleting the post before hitting post. Sometimes I just see it's my own ego talking, and not myself.

Love this lil nugget of wisdom.

Very well said! We must be accountable for all our actions so what better way to prevent that than by not doing it in the first place? (err, I mean, the negative ones!).

You raise good points, Vlad, and part of what we are working on is a way to hold people actually accountable on both sides. A document clearly explaining updated policy is in the works.
Simple expectations for behavior will be laid out and available for all to read. Moderators, Councillors and Security Officers will be more open and required to explain their actions so that they can be reviewed or reversed if necessary. Those deemed in violation will be asked to review certain lessons or complete new ones to demonstrate that they have an understanding of what happened and why it was considered a violation.

Obviously this is a work in progress and will require some trial and error as we learn what works and what doesn't. We will also have to be patient with each other as new policy is implemented and put to actual use.

Make no mistake. There is concerted effort going on from numerous Councillors, Clergy and Knights to create a paradigm shift in this Temple. We are working toward patient and compassionate interaction on a consistent basis and firm but fair action to prevent otherwise. It will be hard and we will make mistakes, but the desire to be better is there and we agree that now is the time to put up or shut up. I realize this has all been said before (you've seen it a thousand times, and few times from my own mouth Zenchi ), but I truly believe that there is momentum building.

Where there is doubt, faith.

Zen, that would be a completely different situation. 1) Giving the benefit of the doubt means there is doubt. If you believe you have proved to yourself that there is malice, then there is malice. 2) The culture and community here aren't the people behind the curtain, as you refer to them. This thread is about what those of us out here can do. Only thing I care about right now is listening to ideas on how I can help make things better.

I'm sorry, man. I give too much of my heart and energy to what we do here to have people imply I'm throwing it away. But I'd be happy to talk with you more in PM, if you'd like.

Zenchi wrote: The longer I stay, the more I come to the stark conclusion staring me in the face that I simply do not belong....

You do us all quite a good service by sticking around. You might come across sometimes as having a short fuse, but as I've learned with my wife (:whistle: ), a short fuse and transparency go hand in hand.

And your transparency is not only tolerated, but openly welcome and priceless to this place.

We should make it a crime to say anything that anyone could possibly interpret as insulting, critical, or negative. Because sprinkles and glitter are more important than forthrightness or authenticity

OB1Shinobi wrote: We should make it a crime to say anything that anyone could possibly interpret as insulting, critical, or negative. Because sprinkles and glitter are more important than forthrightness or authenticity

Isn't that in itself negative and critical?

Ob1 got his Captain Sarcasm cape back from the dry cleaners this week.

Anyway, I can deadpan his attempt at humour

Sprinkles are a contributor to diabetes and heart disease, and glitter, as a non-biodegradable microplastic is almost impossible to eliminate from the environment once it is introduced, and due to its nature it enters the food chain and causes harm to all sort of critters.

One day, you'll eat so much salmon that ate glitter, your poop will sparkle.


so, Ixnay the littergay.

Arisaig wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: We should make it a crime to say anything that anyone could possibly interpret as insulting, critical, or negative. Because sprinkles and glitter are more important than forthrightness or authenticity

Isn't that in itself negative and critical?

Im offended: BANISH HIM!!

JamesSand wrote: Ob1 got his Captain Sarcasm cape back from the dry cleaners this week.

Anyway, I can deadpan his attempt at humour

Sprinkles are a contributor to diabetes and heart disease, and glitter, as a non-biodegradable microplastic is almost impossible to eliminate from the environment once it is introduced, and due to its nature it enters the food chain and causes harm to all sort of critters.

One day, you'll eat so much salmon that ate glitter, your poop will sparkle.


so, Ixnay the littergay.

No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most composed and patiently articulate group of people on the internet (actually we ARE better than most of the internet). No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

We're all thick-skinned and self-validated enough that its incredibly difficult to agitate or offend any of us. And forgiving enough that even if you DID offend one of us, we'd just move on with our lives and probably forget about it by the very next day. With all this in mind, i think its important that we cultivate an environment that thoroughly insulates us from ever having to improve ourselves in any of these areas. To that effect, i submit that we institute a "zero-tolerance" policy on "being mean" or on hurting each others feelings, with the understanding that its not the best intentions of the speaker that determine whats offensive, but the worst possible imaginings of the readers. Because if theres one thing that warriors like Qui-Gon Jinn or Mace Windu just absolutely can not handle (and should not have to), its someone on the internet saying things they dont like.

OB1Shinobi wrote:
No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most placid and articulate group of people on the internet. No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

So, are we overly sensitive or too thicked skin?

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most placid and articulate group of people on the internet. No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

So, are we overly sensitive or too thicked skin?

I have a thick streak of sensitivity?
For instance, i didnt realize i misspelled "sensitive" until i read your post that quoted me. Now im going to burn myself with a cigarette for being such a failure

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most placid and articulate group of people on the internet. No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

So, are we overly sensitive or too thicked skin?

I have a thick streak of sensitivity?
For instance, i didnt realize i misspelled "sensitive" until i read your post that quoted me. Now im going to burn myself with a cigarette for being such a failure

Then I cannot even imagine what you would do to yourself for "cerial".

You ok Ob1? I do admit I am more thick-skulled than thick-skinned.

Manu wrote: Then I cannot even imagine what you would do to yourself for "cerial".

OMGomgOMGDrinksbleach!!

I think ive said enough. This was a great discussion before i entered it. I dont want to detract from that or derail it (further).... i only wanted to point out that IN MY OPINION we need to remember that whie it is important for us to have basic stadards of civility, it also would be....regressive to create an environment of padded walls and kid gloves, with rules and punishments intentionally designed to force "those other people" to moderate their emotional reactions, so as to protect us from ever having to grow up and learn how to regulate our own.