Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

Sure. That's why I said it was a community effort. Nor did I mean to imply the things I mentioned don't happen (or only exclusively happen, as it might be with the negative). The OP asked for what problems we perceived within Temple culture. I merely pointed out what myself, and quite a few others, have been saying for months are some of those problems. Or areas that have room for improvement.

Refusing to acknowledge or accept that these areas of improvement exist doesn't make them disappear. Nor does a chunk of the community brushing them under the rug or failing to acknowledge that those are areas they need to personally improve.

As a church, I would hope that we want to adopt a culture where said areas are improved, and I tried to provide general suggestions on how to do so.

As it stands right now, TOTJO doesn't come across as a place where those who have emotional troubles can find refuge in a widely supportive community, which is what people seek for in a church community. We have slowly become a more exclusive community and less of a church community. And that doesn't seem to be something many people are acknowledging.

But I've had my say on the matter. I'll be curious to see where it goes from here.

I get what you're saying, Ava. This is something I very much want to improve too, and I've been plenty vocal about it, so I know you're not implying that *I* don't acknowledge there's a problem. I'm only trying to point out that sometimes neither the member in distress nor the clergy are in the best position to see when clerical outreach might be warranted.

The Clergy need to be seen as approachable.
I had and have got questions regarding the Jedi faith.
But when you are new to the temple, it is hard to make contact with someone that is not known to you. What if its a question that will seem stupid once the answer is known.
It can lead to fear of ridicule, so you don't ask.
A bond of trust needs to be established with new members.
Its easy to say read the FAQ's
But is that all that's needed?

Given the purpose of this thread I'm going to be uncharacteristically blunt. It is not my intention to offend anyone but if I do, I hope that the offended parties take some time and step away to really think about why what I said offended them before replying. Now on to it.

Personally, the biggest issues that I see facing this Temple have barely been mentioned in this thread, and honestly I don't think that they should be. Those are issues for a different time and a more specific audience.

One problem that I do see that I'd like to bring up is, ironically, the feeling that all of our problems need to be aired out publicly for the world to read. Not every problem needs to be a public one, especially ones that start via PM or are problems with one particular person. This Temple does have processes in place for dealing with these sorts of issues and they should be followed. The purpose of the forum is not to talk in circles about our problems with the Temple or our fellow Jedi, but to learn and grow. Yes, sometimes that involves discussing our problems with each other, but we gain nothing from finger pointing, name calling, and general whining about this, that, and whatever else is bothering us today.

The first thing a new person visiting this Temple sees should not be three newly created threads about why our feelings got hurt or just general complaining. Even the threads who's sole purpose is to bring about positive interactions start by saying "in light of recent negativity." That's not exactly confidence inspiring.

Lastly, the name of this thread implies that the issues are wide spread and involve everyone. That's not to say that most of us are blameless, I know that I am not blameless, but if we are really honest with ourselves and really examine the threads leading up to this one we see not the thousands of members or even the hundred or so regularly active members here as Zenchi has mentioned. We see a select few, a vocal minority, arguing back and forth. Can five or so people really be called a cultural issue?

Now of those select few, many (most, actually) have only the Temple's best interest at heart. Some, though, are just rabble rousing. It's hard to tell the difference but not impossible.

One thing that we can all do is remember how many of us do just have the Temple's best interest at heart, how many of us just want to help, and we help no one by arguing with each other all the time. Remember that arguing only feeds the rabble rousers and dissuades those with pure motives.

Thank you all for reading and for working tirelessly for the members of this Temple. May the Force be with you.

Stephen wrote: The Clergy need to be seen as approachable.
I had and have got questions regarding the Jedi faith.
But when you are new to the temple, it is hard to make contact with someone that is not known to you. What if its a question that will seem stupid once the answer is known.
It can lead to fear of ridicule, so you don't ask.
A bond of trust needs to be established with new members.
Its easy to say read the FAQ's
But is that all that's needed?

Clergy is great for spiritual problems, we actually have a "Contact Clergy" button at the top if you need to get in contact with them.

As for questions about Jediism, we have the chat at the bottom right hand corner of the screen. Someone is usually online to be able to help If anything, my inbox is always open to questions.

Stephen wrote: The Clergy need to be seen as approachable.
I had and have got questions regarding the Jedi faith.
But when you are new to the temple, it is hard to make contact with someone that is not known to you. What if its a question that will seem stupid once the answer is known.
It can lead to fear of ridicule, so you don't ask.
A bond of trust needs to be established with new members.
Its easy to say read the FAQ's
But is that all that's needed?

Thank you, my man, this is really helpful. I mean, I know just about all the clergy, and there isn't one of them that wouldn't have my back in a heartbeat. But you're exactly right, someone walking in off the street wouldn't necessarily know that.

I'm very interested in hearing anyone's ideas about how the clergy can improve their approachability. I have a couple simple things that I do, but I am aware that I'm not the most visible cleric out there.

(As a postscript, there are to my knowledge at least three or four productive conversations happening now as a result of this thread. That's just the ones I'm in on. It makes me happy to see so many people working to take what is said here and turn it into positive action planning for the good of the Temple.)

I tried to use the contact Clergy button and the form to fill out was easy to fill out.
But, to write down a personal question about your faith / belief and then send it to ? I don't know who. Then hope to get an email or whatever response some time soon.
It felt like filing a request. Not sending a message to a spiritual guide.
I would have liked to know who the Clergy were and how to PM them.
This is a Temple / a Church.
The Clergy or Cleric or Pastor should be easy to contact / message.
I hope my experience can be used in a positive way. It is not a bad thing if knowledge is gained.

In response to Stephen's message: Maybe a "meet the clergy" thread, a bit like the "meet the teachers" thread would make avatars more into real people? And that thread would have to be easily visible, so maybe link it in with some signposts from the IP Lesson 0 or in the FAQs?

Twigga wrote: In response to Stephen's message: Maybe a "meet the clergy" thread, a bit like the "meet the teachers" thread would make avatars more into real people? And that thread would have to be easily visible, so maybe link it in with some signposts from the IP Lesson 0 or in the FAQs?

I like the idea of a meet the clergy form and I am working on some stuff to make it easy to find some basics

Twigga wrote: In response to Stephen's message: Maybe a "meet the clergy" thread, a bit like the "meet the teachers" thread would make avatars more into real people? And that thread would have to be easily visible, so maybe link it in with some signposts from the IP Lesson 0 or in the FAQs?

This. Yes. Excellent idea Twigga!

So, what I see here is a need for clear guidelines about what we can and can’t offer as a church along with clear steps we will take when behavior issues arise. This will be provided to all members and we will answer any questions that arise from it. This is being worked on as I write this.

Next, our Clergy will continue efforts to reach out and support those in need while still being conscious of when outside professional help is more appropriate. This has always been the case, but we can make these efforts more obvious to the membership at large.

We will encourage everyone here to act with patience and compassion and take interpersonal drama out of the public forum and into PMs. This could include a new lesson in the IP and/or lessons required for those who need a refresher after an incident.

As a Security Officer, I realize that this will create an increased need for me to be attentive, transparent, and fair while enforcing the agreed upon code of conduct. I will do my best to be strict, but also understanding and open to criticism. I am prepared to take a more active role, but like Atticus points out about Clergy, I will need help from people who notice things going South before they get out of control. PM me, hit me up on Skype, contact me on Facebook Messenger, whatever works and I’ll respond as soon as possible. I will also publicly explain any actions I take in order to allow oversight from others and prevent any sense of favoritism.

We’re in this together, and we’re taking the appropriate steps to improve this Temple. Thank you all for the input and for supporting the leadership here as we try to enact these improvements.

Where there is doubt, faith.

Ah so one of the issues is that that Contact Clergy button is nameless?

In response to twigga, we can defenately make a "clergy: who we are thread"

we could probably do something like a "meet the team" for all offices

Stephen wrote: I tried to use the contact Clergy button and the form to fill out was easy to fill out.
But, to write down a personal question about your faith / belief and then send it to ? I don't know who. Then hope to get an email or whatever response some time soon.
It felt like filing a request. Not sending a message to a spiritual guide.
I would have liked to know who the Clergy were and how to PM them.
This is a Temple / a Church.
The Clergy or Cleric or Pastor should be easy to contact / message.
I hope my experience can be used in a positive way. It is not a bad thing if knowledge is gained.

It's funny, the "contact clergy" button was created to make it easier for people to reach us without having to ask around or without us having to link to the FAQ. If it's not having the desired effect of making the respondent feel comfortable, perhaps we need to rework it.

When I first read your response, Stephen, what popped into my head was when you click on "contact clergy," you get a pop-up 30-second video of half a dozen or so of us introducing ourselves and what we do and what we can offer. I have no idea whether it would be do-able (Tom?) so maybe a "meet the clergy" thread would be the next best thing.




(And then I'll push for video submissions from the clergy to add to it. )

Atticus, I'm working on a project that could dovetail that one. Pm me if that idea goes forward, please.

steamboat28 wrote: Atticus, I'm working on a project that could dovetail that one. Pm me if that idea goes forward, please.

Absolutely, mi amigo.

I’ve been reading through this topic for days now, just observing what people are saying and restraining myself from chiming in unnecessarily.

Now, however, I’d like to add something for everyone to consider on this topic.

Before I “say” this I want to make a few things clear. I am not writing this post to minimize or denigrate anyone’s issues here at the Temple in anyway. This is not an attack on anyone’s feelings or concerns about how things are done around here. I am merely bringing this up due to my own observations and opinions.

I think it’s important for us all to think about how high our expectations are about the Temple and the services it offers. It seems to me that many of us (myself included at times) are perhaps expecting a little too much from the Temple. We should keep in mind the fact that no one here is getting paid for their service to the Temple. While this is a church, it doesn’t function like other churches. Our clergy members are not paid. The Council is not a board of directors who are compensated for their time. Some of the people “running” things put in a tremendous amount of time and effort to make this place function and run smoothly. It is important for us all to remember that everyone has a life to live away from the Temple. We all work (or go to school or both) and take care of our families.

The Jedi path, as is emphasized by the Temple and other groups in the community at large, is a path of self-actualization, self-improvement, self-discovery, self-blah-blah-blah. “The path,” just like life, is what you make it. The Temple is, from my perspective, a place that provides support, training/education, and, when necessary, spiritual guidance. It is not, as people have pointed out, a place equipped to handle serious concerns such as mental illness or life crises nor is it intended to provide constant hand-holding and direction. I’m not saying it’s not okay to expect to be able to lean on individuals at the Temple or the Temple in general when you feel you need some extra support. I just think we would all be well-served by stepping back a bit and really examining our expectations of a place offering all its services for free and almost never asking for donations to pay for the expenses it incurs.

Also, on a related note: I’d like to personally thank the leadership and volunteer team here for their support and constant hard work that sometimes goes unremarked on. It is appreciated and I know you all really work hard to keep this Temple functioning and moving in the right direction.

Just a few thoughts I had.

Also, on a related note: I’d like to personally thank the leadership and volunteer team here for their support and constant hard work that sometimes goes unremarked on. It is appreciated and I know you all really work hard to keep this Temple functioning and moving in the right direction.

From me personally, thank you! Although I myself don't expect it, nor has it ever been the source of motivation for my spending the time and energy here, it is greatly appreciated when others acknowledge what sacrifices are required regularly to ensure the TOTJO continues moving forward, thanks again....

Firstly, the Jedi at the Temple should be commended for the hard work and dedication they put in to the site. Most of us probably don't realise how much time and effort they put in.
However, people should be able to raise concerns and questions. It is how improvements come about.
Also, this is a recognised religion. This is a Temple of the Jedi Religion.
If you can't seek spiritual guidance and feel at ease seeking that guidance.
Where are you supposed to look?
To me, this being a Temple of my Religion. The Clergy are the most important people involved.
This is not a spin off from the film's, TV shows and books.
It is real life. A true Religion.
Thanks to all the Jedi that build, run and maintain this amazing Temple.

I just wanted to give an update here and thank Kit for starting this thread and Manami for the idea of a Pax Templi. We are working on such a document to clarify rules of behavior, the rights and expectations of members, and the procedure when such things fail. It will also contain a list of who to go to for assistance in Temple matters.

I just want the membership to know that the Council hears your requests and does move to take action on them when we are able. I hope your holidays are going well and wish you the best for the coming new year.

I want to thank you all so much for your input. There's been a great deal of good things to come out of this already! And to be honest, I did expect to have to moderate this a lot more than I did. I really greatly appreciate all of your words and care here.

I've spent some time reflecting on what's been said and what I feel on this place. I don't expect us to be a replacement for a professional Mental Health doctor. We're not here to provide diagnosis or medication. BUT I do sincerely feel we are here to support one another. As someone who battles my own often crippling mental and physical conditions, there are three things that help. And one is something anyone can do.

1. An ear listening with compassion. "Oh man, that sucks, I'm so sorry. That's gotta be rough" This is half of the help I need sometimes.
2. Someone who can empathize with me. "I've been there, I can relate, you're not alone."
3. Tips and tricks that has helped others. (as long as it's only offered when asked for lol)

Time and Spoons permitting, #1 is something anyone here can do. I'd love to foster a community where I'd feel comfortable again that nearly anyone could come and find ears to listen, not get batted down and told to Cowboy Up.

I'm not saying we should accept abuse from people who are clearly out of order. But there are many constructive ways that we can redirect that.

If someone says to me "I'm feeling offended by what you said." it's a chance for me to reexamine myself and my words. We can then have a conversation between us by what I meant and how it was received. Sometimes, this means I learn more and can adjust the way I communicate and refrain from saying what I did how I did. Other times, I understand that my words can be taken incorrectly and in this specific case, I don't need to change. But this all requires two things. Productive communication between the two individuals, and serious compassionate introspection. The offended party isn't always right, but neither is the offender.


I'm loving the idea of clear guidelines. Both for what we offer and what we expect our community to follow when we're interacting with each other. I think both these will take a lot of trial and error, so be sure to be communicative with us on what's working and what's not.

I'm really sorry I'm low on spoons today, someone said that the more we learn about our own path, the more we realize there's nothing set in stone or black-and-white. This is where having a nice support community (us) comes in. "By the gods! I just had a shift in awareness and lost my anchor, can someone toss me a lifesaver?" (*snicker* when I was a kid, I thought when they said "lightsaber" they were saying "lifesaver") We can only do so much hand-holding, and I'm not asking anyone who's not willing to do that to do it anyways.... I lost my train of thought. Just support each other ok?

I'll come back again when I've got more brain power to spare. Thanks again everyone