Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

Zenchi wrote: The longer I stay, the more I come to the stark conclusion staring me in the face that I simply do not belong....

You do us all quite a good service by sticking around. You might come across sometimes as having a short fuse, but as I've learned with my wife (:whistle: ), a short fuse and transparency go hand in hand.

And your transparency is not only tolerated, but openly welcome and priceless to this place.

We should make it a crime to say anything that anyone could possibly interpret as insulting, critical, or negative. Because sprinkles and glitter are more important than forthrightness or authenticity

OB1Shinobi wrote: We should make it a crime to say anything that anyone could possibly interpret as insulting, critical, or negative. Because sprinkles and glitter are more important than forthrightness or authenticity

Isn't that in itself negative and critical?

Ob1 got his Captain Sarcasm cape back from the dry cleaners this week.

Anyway, I can deadpan his attempt at humour

Sprinkles are a contributor to diabetes and heart disease, and glitter, as a non-biodegradable microplastic is almost impossible to eliminate from the environment once it is introduced, and due to its nature it enters the food chain and causes harm to all sort of critters.

One day, you'll eat so much salmon that ate glitter, your poop will sparkle.


so, Ixnay the littergay.

Arisaig wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: We should make it a crime to say anything that anyone could possibly interpret as insulting, critical, or negative. Because sprinkles and glitter are more important than forthrightness or authenticity

Isn't that in itself negative and critical?

Im offended: BANISH HIM!!

JamesSand wrote: Ob1 got his Captain Sarcasm cape back from the dry cleaners this week.

Anyway, I can deadpan his attempt at humour

Sprinkles are a contributor to diabetes and heart disease, and glitter, as a non-biodegradable microplastic is almost impossible to eliminate from the environment once it is introduced, and due to its nature it enters the food chain and causes harm to all sort of critters.

One day, you'll eat so much salmon that ate glitter, your poop will sparkle.


so, Ixnay the littergay.

No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most composed and patiently articulate group of people on the internet (actually we ARE better than most of the internet). No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

We're all thick-skinned and self-validated enough that its incredibly difficult to agitate or offend any of us. And forgiving enough that even if you DID offend one of us, we'd just move on with our lives and probably forget about it by the very next day. With all this in mind, i think its important that we cultivate an environment that thoroughly insulates us from ever having to improve ourselves in any of these areas. To that effect, i submit that we institute a "zero-tolerance" policy on "being mean" or on hurting each others feelings, with the understanding that its not the best intentions of the speaker that determine whats offensive, but the worst possible imaginings of the readers. Because if theres one thing that warriors like Qui-Gon Jinn or Mace Windu just absolutely can not handle (and should not have to), its someone on the internet saying things they dont like.

OB1Shinobi wrote:
No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most placid and articulate group of people on the internet. No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

So, are we overly sensitive or too thicked skin?

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most placid and articulate group of people on the internet. No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

So, are we overly sensitive or too thicked skin?

I have a thick streak of sensitivity?
For instance, i didnt realize i misspelled "sensitive" until i read your post that quoted me. Now im going to burn myself with a cigarette for being such a failure

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
No no you misunderstand me, im being totally cerial. Its not like anyone here is over protective or over sensetive or prone to negative interpretations of other peoples words or motives. I mean really, totjo is probably the calmest, most placid and articulate group of people on the internet. No one here ever loses their temper in a way that could get them in trouble and NO ONE here could ever benefit from being told they are wrong.

So, are we overly sensitive or too thicked skin?

I have a thick streak of sensitivity?
For instance, i didnt realize i misspelled "sensitive" until i read your post that quoted me. Now im going to burn myself with a cigarette for being such a failure

Then I cannot even imagine what you would do to yourself for "cerial".

You ok Ob1? I do admit I am more thick-skulled than thick-skinned.

Manu wrote: Then I cannot even imagine what you would do to yourself for "cerial".

OMGomgOMGDrinksbleach!!

I think ive said enough. This was a great discussion before i entered it. I dont want to detract from that or derail it (further).... i only wanted to point out that IN MY OPINION we need to remember that whie it is important for us to have basic stadards of civility, it also would be....regressive to create an environment of padded walls and kid gloves, with rules and punishments intentionally designed to force "those other people" to moderate their emotional reactions, so as to protect us from ever having to grow up and learn how to regulate our own.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Manu wrote: Then I cannot even imagine what you would do to yourself for "cerial".

OMGomgOMGDrinksbleach!

Put the bleach aside, have one of these instead:

Tea perhaps ?!

OB1Shinobi wrote: I only wanted to point out that IN MY OPINION we need to remember that whie it is important for us to have basic stadards of civility, it also would be....regressive to create an environment of padded walls and kid gloves, with rules and punishments intentionally designed to force "those other people" to moderate their emotional reactions, so as to protect us from ever having to grow up and learn how to regulate our own.

I agree with you 100% that trying to artificially insulate people from having to deal with their emotions is not the direction we want to go. I do see great value, however, in raising the bar as to how we learn to communicate with others in more effective ways.

In the real world, in one-to-one interactions, foul language and bluntness can be a huge ally at times, but knowing when to use this method, and knowing how to use more articulate, diplomatic responses in public settings especially (where brute emotional force will only get you so far), is priceless. If we learn to use all tools available, we will be in a much better place to deal with all types of communications coming our way.

We tend to over-demonize foul language and emotional appeals. But the "powers-that-be" have much more subtle ways of trying to control us. We need to use to speak their language as well, in order to identify when we are being targeted.

Well i WAS on my way out lol but i consider it fair to reply if im directly quoted or addressed.

Manu wrote: I agree with you 100% that trying to artificially insulate people from having to deal with their emotions is not the direction we want to go. I do see great value, however, in raising the bar as to how we learn to communicate with others in more effective ways.

Yes, im with you. But I think that "raising the bar" is more about teaching people new skills and allowing them the freedom to succeed or to fail than it is about censoring and banning into obscurity those who dont display the skills. Theres a difference between on the one hand, really learning (by experience) the importance and value of different communication styles vs merely deleting any contribution that doesnt live up to some authority figure's interpretation of the standard such skills imply.

have to be careful here because i dont want it to seem like im arguing for some kind of wild west, laws of the jungle community policy. Im not. I love the idea of having some guidelines and expectations spelled out and available for all to read and reference.... im just concerned with the potential for such measures to produce a overly sterilized environment, where placidity is enforced at the expense of authenticity.

We have rules about language. We have rules about critiquing ideas, not people. We have punishments relating to the infraction of rules.
Ive not been around as much lately as i used to be, and ive missed a lot of the (apparently volatile) discussions which are being referenced in this topic. My most recent personal experience indicates that the rules are already pretty tight in regards to enforcing courtesy and that the people who enforce them are plenty quick to do just that (thats not a criticism). As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT. And so i am voicing my own concerns while the opportunity is here.

When we speak to people irl, we communicate with with more than words. We use body language and posture also.
When we write something. If we put a punctuation mark in the wrong place, it can change the meaning of the sentence.
So I would if I was to upset or offend someone.
Give me the chance to apologize or explain what was meant, even both.
People with the quickest temper, are usually the people the calm down quickly.
It's only venting. It's better than keeping everything bottled up inside. Leaving it to fester.

One can fail at a task, but still learn a lesson. -. Luminara Unduli

OB1Shinobi wrote: it also would be....regressive to create an environment of padded walls and kid gloves, with rules and punishments intentionally designed to force "those other people" to moderate their emotional reactions, so as to protect us from ever having to grow up and learn how to regulate our own.

Well, something has to do it, because apparently training and doctrine isn't working.

I don't know if I agree with the punishment aspect, but something definitely has to change here. We need to start holding each other to higher standards than we have if we want to progress along anything resembling a communal experience. While everyone's Jedi path is unique and individual, there is also the aspect of community in the Jedi path that is nearly universal--we need others who understand, and others need us. Along those lines, we are failing right now, missing the fact that progression along such a communal path also enhances our own.

While Obi-wan was training at the temple, he struggled to control his temper and fear.
When he had completed his training at the temple, he had still not been chosen as a Padawan.
Qui-Gon Jinn refused to accept Obi-Wan. He even turned down Yoda's request for him to take Obi-Wan as his Padawan.
Obi-Wan left the temple to become a farmer.
It was a shared adversity the bond of Master and Apprentice was formed.

Obi-Wan became one of the greatest Jedi despite his temper.
Disagreement formed a great bond between the two.

Be careful when you lay down rules that you don't limit a persons growth.

Stephen wrote: While Obi-wan was training at the temple, he struggled to control his temper and fear.
When he had completed his training at the temple, he had still not been chosen as a Padawan.
Qui-Gon Jinn refused to accept Obi-Wan. He even turned down Yoda's request for him to take Obi-Wan as his Padawan.
Obi-Wan left the temple to become a farmer.
It was a shared adversity the bond of Master and Apprentice was formed.

Obi-Wan became one of the greatest Jedi despite his temper.
Disagreement formed a great bond between the two.

Be careful when you lay down rules that you don't limit a persons growth.

this is something that I've thought about as well. Just a small note to let you know that I'm reading and taking in everything here.

I've found a lot of folks on here really helpful and or point me in the right direction of the help I needed.

We must allow open discussion no matter how painful it can be thats how people grow and learn

There's my two cents from a youngin'

I'm a rather new member. Still working through my IP, still have a long way to go, and overall I have basically not been present enough in this community yet to really comment on any aspect of its culture or what people are going through.

I would like to say, however, that at least for me, I am grateful for the grace and kindness that was shown to me so far, and I have felt very welcomed. Thank you for your hard work!

One issue with the nature of the work that we intend to do (at least, how I have come to understand it so far) is that we are challenging deeply-rooted assumptions and perceptions about the way we interact with and view the world. This is not easy work... confronting our biases, assumptions, and core values for what they are can easily be described as painful even. Through the work I've done so far in my own life, I have experienced a lot of this kind of conflict, and I still do. Harder still is accepting that some parts of our perception will always be so, and that it's okay, but we still need to work hard to continue doing the best for others.
Because of this, struggling with mental health issues only makes the work of examining the deepest and darkest parts of ourselves that we care not to admit that much harder. I am still struggling with this in my life, and I can attest to this. Still, I can also see that navigating how a community approaches people in this position can be difficult, as I see it as a rather grey area. That is, a religious community should both be a place of support, love, and encouragement, but also one that emphasizes the importance of obtaining more specialized help when needed that could not be provided here. There is no single solution that would fix it, and it takes the work of talented and introspective people to handle each person with care so as to apply what works for them. I am someone who regularly sees a therapist and is working actively through a lot of trauma in my life, and also I am someone who surrounds myself with caring people both off and online.

In short, if it seems really daunting and challenging to address this issue, then I think that means we're doing it right, essentially.