ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

Weed out? That is worrying. I thought the purpose was for selecting apprentices. Teacher / student relationship must be a good fit for both. So if my thoughts / ramblings/ postings are not "a good fit" will I be weeded out? I hope not. Thank you for your post.

No one as far as I know has been talking about weeding people out. If anything, people weed themselves out here unless they're a blatant troll
Edit: having the wrong opinion doesn't get you banned, breaking the ToS will eventually

Alethea Thompson wrote: Changing the definition back to the original "Jediism is a religion based on the observance of the Force" from "religious school of thought" would definitely make it less of a mouthful. I don't see a problem with changing that, or even just keeping the original write up. As you'll recall, I was not the one to propose an edit on that, I only proposed a renaming of the Creed to "Jedi Affirmations", an introduction to the Jedi Code, and streamlining the two documents into one so we could compare the three and choose one.

As for the edit suggested by Zealot to axe metaphysical and replace it with "Divine". I actually think that pulls it more outside the realm of Jedi Realism and across the line into Jediism. It also goes to the heart of the discussion that was had in the "Is Reiki a Force Power?" thread a couple of weeks ago.

When that discussion occurred, we saw a lot of people get upset that anyone would equate alternative healing methods like that to using the Force (I also note that some in the "against" camp noted they could see it being used for calming someone down, but not for legit healing). It would seem that the ToTJO environment is more against Metaphysical studies (of which Reiki, Telepathy, and the like fall into) than they would the idea that something is divine.

Divine also has a lot more connotations than simply a "deity". In many new-age cultures, Humans have their own internal divinity.

I think I better quote wikipedia,

Metaphysics is a major branch of philosophy. It concerns existence and the nature of things that exist. Altogether it is a theory of reality.

Ontology is the part of metaphysics which discusses what exists: the categories of being. Apart from ontology, metaphysics concerns the nature of, and relations among, the things that exist.


When we say the force is metaphysical, what we mean is it cannot be objectively studied. We are in it and cannot observe it from the outside because there is no 'outside the force'. There is plenty of evidence the force exists in the physical world, and that aspect can be studied too, because everything that exists is a manifestation of the Force... However when it comes to the Force as a whole we fall outside the study of physics and fall into philosophy.

Being metaphysical does not imply we accept other metaphysical theories as true or integrate them as part of our own.

In Jediism we have the Force, the reiki guys have their own thing, the wicca guys have theirs, etc, and we are quite happy for things to remain that way.



'Ren may have historically used the term to talk down to people, but I was unaware of his use of the term until long after I began FRM. '

Ren hasn't talked about realists since the way old JRC forum and maybe TJW, except here with you briefly, so I think Rex's observations are his own and have little to do with me.

I'm not quite sure why you insist on streamlining and removing the 2 'documents'. I see the doctrine as one incomplete document which could do with additional headache-inducing text, not less.

Regarding 'divine', no matter who suggested it first or why, the issue we'll find is that it is of god, by god, or God-like in some way and we're going to find ourselves trapped in the pantheist panentheist or other theist definitions, which we have been staying away from.

The closest non-jedi religious concept to the Force as described by the current doctrine is Brahman (interestingly also at the source of other better known religions).

Wiki describes it as 'In Hinduism, Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe.'

Doesnt change yet causes changes= what we usually refer to as energy when describing the Force, everything else we could copy/paste and exchange brahman with 'the Force', and 'hindu' with 'jedi'.

So, real talk - is this proposal still being worked on or is it still in rough draft? I haven’t seen anything come by the council as far as something to read.
When it is sent , we will discuss and vote. That’s the procedure.

How can we as a organization with many different clergy and Knights change a doctrine that not every one has has time and effort to weigh in on?
How can we change things like this - this big- with only a few who want the change or even know of the change? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

Hint hint : if it came from the Knights as a collective whole - voted asked discussed and such - maybe it would hold a bit more weight rather than from just a select few. Real talk -Seems likes it’s been done in the dark - I know it hasn’t but it seems shady. Use your resources and procedure. It can be said Br John really loves the Knights here - there’s no doubt. That’s why we are still standing.[one of the reasons ] There is nothing we CANT do here. Maybe a bit more of inclusion and time, rather than being just a quick makeshift draft and it be ever changing never done....maybe we can result in a different outcome?

Solutions
Any other solutions to what we see here? Real ones?

I would say we’re still looking at it. Afterall, there is now a dispute on whether or not the word “divine” should be included or switched.

Regardless of what Wiki says, Ren, it doesn’t make common usage and understanding of the term any less difficult to fit into the views of the community.

https://metaphysicsuniversity.com/

^ They teach all kinds of things...like Reiki, Astral Projection, Aura Viewing and many more that people would place in the category of Psuedoscience. The word “metaphysical” has too many things attached to it which are disputed by the membership here.

Divine, too- in the sense that not everyone here attributes the Force to having anything to do with God. Even if Lucas’ purpose for putting it into the films was to get young people to question whether or not they believe God exists.

Sacred at least is more about how you treat it’s importance.

It seems to me that whatever wording is decided on we can resolve the interpretative ambiguity by simply including the precise definition we have in mind for the word. Divine, metaphysical, sacred, holy, mystical, esoteric, whatever.

“We believe in blah blah blah (by which we mean: our preferred definition of “blah blah blah” here)”

Rex, thank you.

I quote "You can say that the IP does, because we have it as an assignment. But by and large the IP was never designed to focus people on what the Jedi Path was, but rather for knights and masters to get to know who their potential students are, to weed out those that don't want to put in any work (and I'm not saying that as an observation, that's literally the answer I've received from council members that were present earlier this decade)."

I underlined the weeding out wording.

Emphasis should be put more on the “those that don’t want to put in any work”.

If you cannot complete the IP, then it’s not a hard leap to believe that placing the student in an apprenticeship wouldn’t be fruitful for either the Training s Master or the Apprentice. I’m actually not opposed to that mindset, it makes sense. I am opposed to the IP not having a bigger emphasis on what it really means to be a Jedi of our Order.

ren wrote: The closest non-jedi religious concept to the Force as described by the current doctrine is Brahman (interestingly also at the source of other better known religions).

Wiki describes it as 'In Hinduism, Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe.'

Doesnt change yet causes changes= what we usually refer to as energy when describing the Force, everything else we could copy/paste and exchange brahman with 'the Force', and 'hindu' with 'jedi'.

Hindu is a broad category, and Brahman is not universally defined within Hinduism but its a good place to start. Given what you said you'd be looking at a non-dual school of Hinduism wouldn't you to match closer to Jediism? As to me Jedi doctrine here clearly seems to state it is more then belief or thought, but also pragmatic action.

I might use something like this super simplified (and therefore probably wrong) way to look at it;

Metaphysical belief -> Ontology of that belief in reality -> Practises of that belief informed by its ontology

Being for us something like;
Force believer -> Force philosopher -> Jedi

Jediism is the three of those things together in a someone (a Jediist).

Any other labels beyond that are probably sections (sects) of the compete 'three bodies of path for a well rounded spiritual way'.
Versions of other labels then being; belief alone, or philosophy alone, or practise alone, or belief and philosophy but without practise, or belief and practise without philosophy, or philosophy and practises but without belief

So maybe, given one cannot know the whole, an Indian version might be;
Brahman -> Advaita Vedanta -> Jainism & Buddhism

Leading to it being something like two branches of belief;
- the metaphysics of the Force,
- the ontology of it as a non-dual thang in a seemingly dualistic existence, and thirdly

- a trunk of practise. The practises being the actions of belief in ones mind, body and environment.

But 'Why Jedi and not Force Practitioner' is a good question to ask
If 'Force Practioner' was used instead in those three bodies of the path, then what difference is Sith vs Jedi if they both have all three components!!! My thinking is probably (assuming an identical fully reduced universal non-dual definition of the Force) just different ontologies and practises. But for me, by fully reducing the Force as it is in the Doctrine, the closer one gets to the Force the more value all its non-self aspects begin to have, making it more and more 'light' and less 'dark'. The definition of the Force being then what defines it as 'light'.

But there might be dualism Force believers too? A distinct light Force and a distinct dark Force, but sharing the universal parameters. Or three types of Force, or more. Not to get caught up in the labels, but more to the point that does the essence being defined exist as a singular existence monism by rule of Doctrine, or not? Does the current Doctrine cater to them, and if not, is it really a Temple for all Jedi anyway (and should it)?

In regards to the use of divine, its probably not appropriate since its originally from and has significant contemporary use as meaning 'god'.

*Poke*

As it seems the discussion portion on sacred, divine and metaphysical, shall we have a vote? ^^

Just write which word you prefer as it pertains to the following:

Jediism is a religious school of thought based on the observance of the Force, an ubiquitous and *DIVINE/SACRED/METAPHYSICAL* energy that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the fundamental nature of the universe.

I’ll give it a week before I make an edit to the original proposal document.

Who is voting on this?
Metaphysical or alternatively ontological anyhow

I will say I am a very do you type of Jediism person. I look at it this way because in idea there is a lot of knowledge through the community of different SW related religious/spritiual groups. To lose that knowledge by creating sects, is a dangerous thing for the ideology as is.

Though I understand that I chose to study here because of the fact that TOTJO is an order that closely shares my ideals and I have had enlightening, knowledge/informational and overall friendly conversations in (Not, that I didn't and don't get frustrated with interactions some times, I do.) . However, looking at it as someone who cares about the continuity of this Order, I understand the need for a definition to define the Order, but, I believe it should be vague for the purpose of diverse ideas. "Do not set your self so far a part you, cannot see others."- IDK probably someone at some point. Some of these ideas will be bad or not fitting(IMHO) and will be determined by consensus of the order through the natural evolution of the discussion. So, I truly think it's a good idea to keep it vague.

This is what I would purpose and vote for were it up to me. It leaves a lot open and doesn't define the Order much, but hopefully inspires those who may find a different path through a start with us (IMHO a just as worthy cause). Think people who are members but not in ranks or clergy. I have learned much from some of these people and I would fear squashing that path.

"Jediism is a religious school of thought based on the observance of the Force, an ubiquitous and infinite energy that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the fundamental nature of the universe."

I know it's not what we would expect but it's what I got. I don't know that I added much to this conversation. But, this is something that triggered some thought on it. For the record I started out thinking I was a grey, because well I wasn't thinking about the actual idea just focused on getting in and figuring out where I fit in the idea .

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

I'm a Lore-Junky, so why not give a nod to the the inspiration??

"Jediism is a religious school of thought based on the observance of the Force as the universal and living energy that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the fundamental nature of the universe."

Living Force and Unifying Force? Or maybe switch the two around?

@Rex: Right now? It’s open to everyone. Later: Just members. I think Br. John wanted the group to decide rather than just the Council.

Heh, Still another 30 days until I can set aside the time to think about this properly.

Not that my views would have any great inspiration to them....

Still, "model UN" sort of thing - what happens at a diplomatic event when not enough people turn up? is it still diplomacy, or does it become....something else?

You still have time James. Right now we're just working on the definition of the Force. As you can see, the conversation just got more complicated as new words have come in.

Here's an idea, however, why not take a singular principle and think on it throughout the course of a day. Consider if it actually makes sense. As you come across one that you don't or you think you can turn into something shorter and still hit the mark- post about it on here. It's a much faster process than waiting for time to look at the whole at once. In fact, when you CAN look at the whole all at once, it will become a much faster task after you've considered each.

If you find it important, you'll find a way to accomplish the mission. If not, well I guess you just have to trust in your fellow Jedi to make the decisions. After all, something could come up between now and that day you believe you have time.

If you find it important, you'll find a way to accomplish the mission. If not, well I guess you just have to trust in your fellow Jedi to make the decisions. After all, something could come up between now and that day you believe you have time.

Heh, the things I find important are, for the moment, directed to me. The things I find important personally have no room to be addressed for another 25 odd days....

Right now my family doesn't even have access to chairs or a refrigerator, and that is not even at the top of my priorities


I am somewhat invested in TotJO's "brand" going forward - ack that ToTJO can't wait for little old me to "get around to it" however.

That's completely understandable. And it just shows that there are any number of things that could happen between now and then.

Learning to have faith in your fellow Jedi may prove good for you though. If I didn't have faith in the membership here, I would have proposed my idea and not offered others to weigh in.

If this is still being discussed by the time you get time to consider things, then it was meant to be. ^^

First, I'd like to thank Alethea for tackling this. She has put in a lot of effort to look at something a lot of us look at only a few times. I 100% support Alethea. I believe the need does exist. And I would caution us from getting too deep (too late) or continuing a "conservative" vs "progressive" style debate because this, for me, isn't about the doctrines being "broken", but rather the wording/communication/expression being something that had room for improvement. If you believe in the Jedi Path, then I dare say we should all recognize that we aren't perfect. We're trying to "get somewhere". And because we aren't perfect, nothing we create, is by definition... perfect. The idea that someone could come along later and improve something doesn't mean what was previously there is wrong or that changing it is some form of disrespect. I love who I was 30 years ago. That doesn't mean I have to think, believe, or speak the same as I did back then. So for all those who are like "why do we need to do this?" The real question is "why not do it?" Things grow. Things evolve. This includes the Force and we, as expressions of it.

Second, I had the honor of helping in this endeavor and I really respect the fact that Alethea was open to other people putting their 2 cents in and making it a group effort. Part of what I'm hearing is a desire to be vague in order to accommodate the multitude of thought expressed in TOTJO. Allow me to make some of you uncomfortable once again by talking about race, lol. Not on purpose, of course. I love all you guys and desire understanding above all.

In the black community (which I can speak for to some extent) there is a beautiful multitude of shades and color in the physical sense just as there are plenty of views and ideas. It is not hardly a monolith and yet is still represented by one single word. "Black". And even this word has certain controversies attached, but the power comes from having a shared experience which produces a common culture.

Religion, we need to keep in mind, for all this "we wanna be a religion/church" is, in reality, dangerous.

Most religions do have different sects. Christianity has thousands. The problem with sects is that they don't always tend to mix very well. They sometimes have their own words or their own definitions and meanings. This may be somewhat unavoidable. Beliefs tend to clash. The more "out there" a belief is the more it will clash with folks who are more into logic and reason.

What I want to see is more of a common culture and shared experience being the connective tissue that links us all together. Because if you want me to believe "Reiki" is Jedi.... I'm going to respectfully disagree every time. And we can debate that point but I'm probably not going to be convinced. Just being real with you. I don't want to make the same mistakes religions from antiquity have made where they change the story to match their beliefs. There should be a difference between what "WE BELIEVE" and what "I (personally) believe". This is important because if I had seen "Jedi believe ....Reiki.... " in the doctrine I probably would have moved on. The doctrines are a place for the people who are not Jedi to understand what a Jedi is and what we believe. The whole "its a mystery" thing is not the right place for doctrines. Doctrines are what you believe, not what you think might possibly potentially maybe I dunno idk err could be. Rastafarians have a lot of diversity of thought too. And that is also classified as a religion. But guess what? There are Rastas that don't believe in the bible, Rastas that are into more Kemetic practices, etc.

Because Doctrines are mostly for people on the outside looking in (also internal organizing helps when you start off with something more simple) it needs to be clear and simple and free of grammatical and spelling issues. If I'm with my family and I'm telling them what I believe and I obviously want them to take me seriously, I don't want them googling something in the back ground with spelling errors and contradictions. The idea that contradictions are somehow helpful, no... I disagree and am more than happy to debate that with you.

I want being Jedi to be like being black. It doesn't mean we have to all agree but that there is a common core of experience and understanding that we can all support and maintain. And if there are Jedi who personally believe in fairies and trolls, then that okay. That's them. It doesn't need to be an entire sect. And arguably sects already exist between light, dark, and grey. The point of updating the doctrines is not to fundamentally change all of this but rather to make it all sound better. Using fewer words is part of that process, and this is coming from a guy who uses MANY MANY words. Fewer words is like shorter urls. It's better if you can do it because its easier to convey, easier to memorize, easier to tweet, etc. It's easier to digest. Now if you want something more wordy then link the simple doctrine to a more lengthy article that provides in-depth explanation/analysis. That's why hyperlinks were invented. You can have your cake and eat it too.