ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

15 Oct 2019 18:12 #344442 by JamesSand

Just thoughts to consider.

As far as it goes - the development and implementation of good doctrine doesn't necessarily require that the author be obedient to it.

This discussion is very ego driven , and the responses are not very promising. Much flexing , much ruffled featheres , little consideration for eachothers replies.

A few questions :

Who wrote the Doctrine?
How does He/She feel about changing it ?
Is said person consulted ( if still able off course )?

You don't want ego driven discussion, but we should care about the feelings for an author of something that we are looking to replace/amend*?

Either the existing system stands up on its own, or the new system stands up on its own. The feelings or persuasiveness of either authors should have exactly sod all bearing on the system's suitability...

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15 Oct 2019 18:19 #344443 by Alethea Thompson
I'm just going to pull a couple of pieces out of the current doctrine and address.

From the 21 Maxims:

ToTJO's version of the 21 Maxims (unchanged since first introduced in 2013)
Loyalty: To have faith in your Jedi brothers and sisters.
A Jedi remains true to what they have learned and to their own teachings. A Jedi always serves those who wish to learn more of the ways of the Force and in doing so, remain loyal to the way of Jediism and their Order.

NOTE: I'm unsure who edited the original 21 Maxims presented on, as far as I can tell the below version was still present on even after ToTJO adopted the 21 Maxims.

The Original 21 Maxims on Loyalty
III. Loyalty
Be known for unwavering commitment to the people and ideals you choose to live by. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them. Jedi can exist in this universe because the Force exists. But the Jedi Order needs more: it requires loyalty. It goes without saying that Jedi should be loyal to one another. They should not squabble or fight. More importantly, though, each Jedi should be aware that he must act in accordance with the wishes of his Master, who must in turn act in accordance with the wishes of the Jedi Council. This is not a question of seniority, but rather of understanding the will of the Force, and in this regard, the members of the Jedi Council are wise council indeed.

Over time, I can see the issue with a line like this one. One of the biggest concerns that members of ToTJO have had over the years is that this order should be inclusive rather than exclusive. Although the spirit of this line seems great, it can create a personal vision of "us" vs. "them" mentality.

Now, I don't know the mind of the person who wrote the 21 Maxims (poking around the Internet it looks like it was Christopher Chanada, but I can't find anything that confirms this), but this tenet in particular does seem to be tied closely to several pieces in the Jedi Behaviors (from the Fiction, you can find them under the "Legends" Tab on the Jedi Code Wookiepedia): Honor Your Padawan, Honor Your Master, Honor the Jedi Council, and Honor the Jedi Order (note: The Jedi Behaviors [published in Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Aug. 2002] were not the source material for the 21 Maxims [earlies found Mar. 14, 2001]). Including these is a simple way of acknowledging that because people who are seeking to become Jedi are therefore seeking similar synchronicity with the Force, they should also be considered allies with the Jedi Path. This same basic sentiment isn't just inside of the fiction though, it's echoed within US Army's values under "Loyalty"-
"Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers. Bearing true faith and allegiance is a matter of believing in and devoting yourself to something or someone. A loyal Soldier is one who supports the leadership and stands up for fellow Soldiers. By wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army you are expressing your loyalty. And by doing your share, you show your loyalty to your unit." (

The difference between the Fictional Universe and the Army, however, is that these are formed around organizations which have the ability to pick and choose who remains amongst them based on a set of conduct rules. The Jedi Community, however, does not really have that. And where Temple of the Jedi Order does have a means to vet who stays and who doesn't (even if it's rarely implemented)- the line in the 21 Maxims wasn't intended to be restricted to an singular order's organization. We can see this in the language: "to Jediism and their Order". If we turned it into "[strike]to Jediism and[/strike] their Order" the line would at least limit who the is considered "Jedi brothers and sisters". But given the culture of Temple of the Jedi Order, to this time, it would actually go against the spirit of inclusion.


From the 16 Teachings:

5. Jedi understand that well-being consists in the physical, the mental and the spiritual. A Jedi trains each to ensure they remain capable of performing their duties to the best of their ability. All of these are interconnected and essential parts of our training in becoming more harmonious with the Force.

Just for comparison, here are three other incarnations of Jedi Kidohdin's teachings (he had 16, then 18 and eventually 33 Teachings:

The one used at ToTJF now-
8. Jedi understand that physical training is as important as training the mind and the spirit. We understand that all aspects of training are necessary to maintain the Jedi way of life and to perform the duties of a Jedi.

The original 16 Teachings-
9. Jedi stay physically fit in order to accomplish
their mission in life:

Yoda: "Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the
Force."(Yoda giving Luke physical training)-Episode V
Obi-Wan: "Run, Luke. Run!" -Episode IV

The one from the 18 Teachings-
9. Jedi stay physically fit in order to accomplish their mission in life. Fitness is a part of Jediism, but the level of fitness depends on the individual. Yoga, Tai Chi, the Martial Arts, jogging, swimming, etc... are excellent ways to stay fit. Always consult with your physician before starting any fitness program.

The one from the 33 Teachings-
13. Jedi keep themselves physically fit on behalf of the Living Force: It is the will of the Force for a Jedi to stay fit. Jedi can't accomplish their mission in life unless they are mentally, spiritually, and physically fit. Fitness is an integral part of Jediism, but the level of fitness depends on the individual. Yoga, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, the Martial Arts, lightsaber fencing, jogging, swimming, biking, etc., are all excellent ways to stay fit. Fitness affects your mental health in a positive way, and improves your over-all well being. There are so many positive benefits to staying fit that I can't list them all here. However, always consult with your physician before starting any new physical fitness program.

The incarnation used at ToTJO now, IMO, is the better worded of the 4 different versions. Where the ones from the 18 and 33 Teachings are in-depth and draws from the idea that all Jedi in the fiction were capable of performing the same basic tasks- Temple of the Jedi Order believes that you can still be a Jedi and have massive medical limitations. Here, it's not about the whether or not you can perform specific tasks, but rather whether or not you can achieve the Jedi Path with the limitations you have. That is, the argument has been made several times that if Stephen Hawking applied himself to the Jedi Path, he could manifest it in his life even from his wheel chair. If Stephen Hawking could theoretically do it, then it's not impossible for others to achieve the path in whatever situation they are given. (let's not get into labeling people things they didn't claim, this discussion has nothing to do with whether or not we should give Stephen Hawking or Jesus Christ an honorary "Jedi Master" title).

The original 16 Teachings gives us better insight into the influence that the fiction had on Kidohdin's document. It certainly supports the idea that the language intends to limit who can and cannot be Jedi. Which doesn't work well for a religious structure.

The one used at ToTJF (I am unaware of who edited this one, as the earliest version I can find of the 16 Teachings used by ToTJO cited the 18 Teachings version), strips away much of the limiting language in original 16, 18 & 33 Teachings incarnation. However it misses something in the sentence structure which the current ToTJO incarnation makes up for. By turning the connection of Physical, Spiritual and Mental health into our connection with the Force it not only bridges the path with a religious tone, but it also helps bring about this flexibility which acknowledges the previous position: That if Stephen Hawking applied himself to the Jedi Path, he could have become a great Jedi Master.


From the 21 Maxims

ToTJO's current version-
Discretion: To become invisible.
A Jedi knows there is a time and place for all things. They do not actively interfere in worldly affairs and refrain from overtly supporting or opposing other individuals or organizations.

The Original-
XIV. Discretion
It is sometimes necessary for a Jedi to practice discretion. Jedis do not actively interfere with the lives of the common people. Jedi stand for order and justice; however, Jedis prioritize and streamline their involvement, and do not allow the misdeeds of the few to interfere with the conscious direction received as to the Will of the Force and how their office as Jedi helps brings these into fruition. The goal of the Jedi should be to create and preserve an atmosphere where justice can flourish, rather than try to create justice themselves. A byword of Jedi could be, "I may not always agree with your choices, but I will defend your right to choose with my very life."

This is actually one where I feel like the original tenet is the superior one- but it could be edited down to what I underlined above. If we actually wanted to follow the ToTJO version...we may as well not talk actively engage in political discussions. But those political discussions have become a major factor in the forward movement of our countries. Furthermore, even if we looked at the fiction- the Jedi were pretty involved with political stuff. They absolutely supported one side over another (Rebel Forces, the Republic). In fact, the Jedi Behaviors mentioned earlier has:

Duty To The Republic
Although the Jedi and the Republic were dissimilar, and the Jedi Order had no authority over the Republic, the Jedi served the Republic, and were expected to uphold its laws and ideals, and to protect its citizens. However, members of the Order held no rank in Republic hierarchy, and only served when asked; at all other times they stepped aside. This strange agreement between the two parties had stood for so long that no one knew how or why it had come about.

Now, I'm not saying we should adopt the above Jedi Behavior. If anything, the original 6 films illustrated perfectly why it's not a good idea to have a strict loyalty to a government body. Eventually it can become corrupt. That said, the general idea "loyalty to the people of the Republic" wouldn't be bad...but in the set up of the Jedi Behaviors, that's already covered under "Render Aid", "Defend the Weak" and "Provide Support". Furthermore, relinquishing the hold of a "Loyalty to the People" gives you the ability to champion causes that are more globally focused (such as Border discussions in the US).

The reason I bring this up, is because ToTJO is also very globally minded. The current incarnation of "Discretion" in the 21 Maxims doesn't actually reflect the culture of ToTJO. We've had people try to actively champion causes (as I recall, there was even one who was pretty far up with "Occupy Wallstreet" for a time). Furthermore, the fact that we actively have in our doctrine that we specifically are against the death penalty and support a "society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice" causes further confusion with the current writing of this tenet. Though it does not go against the original from


I'm not going to get into every single point, but going back to our original discussion on the idea of which document would be the best to move forward with, I have some thoughts.

First is that the 21 Maxims were originally written during a time when the Jedi Community was more heavily involved with the original Role-Playing crowd working to manifest the Jedi Path from the fiction into a coherent piece for real life Jedi to take up.

The 16 Teachings is actually the work of an individual that argued against the teachings at because he felt they were too inflexible (thank you Kitsu Tails for preserving this bit of information [ ]). If Kidohdin's account is accurate, then the original 21 Maxims were written less as a religious document and more for that of a Knightly Religious Order (romanticized). Kidohdin's version of the story (again, it's his version- I wasn't there) goes that he went to the fiction directly and pulled ideas from the movies to create his teachings. But even his version of the document has some points that don't really work well for a religion, and do work quite well for a Knightly Religious Order.

Which brings us to the 16 Teachings in it's current ToTJO incarnation. Our current model was edited at least one time since we began using it. The edit did take into account what we have learned thus far about what is and isn't practical- while also working to preserve some of the culture that has formed around Temple of the Jedi Order.

Finally we have the proposed "Principles of Jediism". Although there are weak points in the 21 Maxims, there were things in it that offer cross-clarification with the 16 Teachings. This was one of the primary reasons I recommended creating a new document from the 2 we currently have in our doctrine. By combining them, we get the strengths of both.

My personal hope is that we adopt either the 16 Teachings (which was the original document) or the "Principles of Jediism" (which seeks to strengthen both documents). As I've said before, there is still room to work on editing the latter, but the 16 Teachings wouldn't really be the same document if we tried another edit with it and I believe it should remain as is going forward with these talks.

Gather at the River,
Setanaoko Oceana
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15 Oct 2019 18:23 #344444 by Alethea Thompson

Before I started this project, it began with a conversation about the origin of the Jedi Creed with the founder (who is still a member of the council here) of this order. He and I talked about this project and he gave me the go-ahead to open up the project.

Gather at the River,
Setanaoko Oceana
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16 Oct 2019 03:01 #344458 by Rex
To a certain extent, I'd love to hear what the ideas were behind the original doctrine and see what discussion went on to create and improve them. I'm sure that process would be invaluable for those who want to make changes.

At the same time, once it's written, it matters how the readers understand it and ought to stand on its own merits.

Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
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18 Oct 2019 20:09 #344608 by Alethea Thompson
Anyone had a chance to pull out the proposed document and look more closely at it? ^^

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18 Oct 2019 22:36 #344619 by

Alethea Thompson wrote: Anyone had a chance to pull out the proposed document and look more closely at it? ^^

You've got my thumbs up

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20 Oct 2019 22:49 #344659 by Rosalyn J
What is the proposed/ potential fruit of changing the doctrine?

Pax Per Ministerium

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21 Oct 2019 00:41 - 21 Oct 2019 00:43 #344661 by OB1Shinobi
I dont know if this is answering your question in the way that you meant it when you asked but my understanding from what ive seen so far is that 1) this isnt an effort to change the doctrine, only to streamline it. And 2) the benefits are an increase in clarity and a reduction of redundancy.

——- —-

If im wrong, could someone please explain how/why i’m wrong and If im correct, could someone please explain how/why im correct?

People are complicated.
Last edit: 21 Oct 2019 00:43 by OB1Shinobi.
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21 Oct 2019 02:52 - 21 Oct 2019 03:07 #344664 by Rosalyn J
What will the streamlining/reduction of redundancy do?

To be clear, I have read the document. I'm glad there is more than one voice in the process. I think there has been a good crack at it. It does read a bit simple and so in some ways loses a bit of the "mystery" and a bit of the uncovering that needs to happen with successive reading/studying. But it is possible to recover that as long as we treat it with a bit of reverance

Im aware of the "organizational" reasoning for streamling IE building an IP that helps focus members on the central tenants of Jediism.

What will be the fruit of the focus then for the student

Pax Per Ministerium

Last edit: 21 Oct 2019 03:07 by Rosalyn J.
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21 Oct 2019 15:07 #344690 by Alethea Thompson
I’m curious about the statement “It does read a bit simple and so in some ways loses a bit of the ‘mystery’ and a bit of the uncovering that needs to happen with successive reading/studying”

I’ve never felt that either of the 2 documents added a “mystery” factor to the Jedi Path. The practically non-definition of the Force did, but the documents were more about how to move within the Force. As a 2 document -system- I think it speaks less to mystery. More, it seems to speak towards insistence with redundancy, and in seemingly (keyword) minor contradictions indecisiveness.

By streamlining, I think it actually opens more doors to explore the mystery unencumbered. Two of the most important mysteries of Jediism, in my opinion, is:

1) The Force
2) Our individual role within the Force

In the doctrine the Force is made it’s own mystery that we are meant to explore. But we explore that with our very lives. The rest of the doctrine explains how we should explore it- but the mystery of how each principle/tenet/pillar fits into ourselves or how we can learn to manifest it is the greatest mystery of all. Having direction on what we should be looking for would be fulfilled by the doctrine, and introduction on how to begin looking covered by the IP.

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