The Problem with Black Lives Matter

06 Jun 2017 13:37 - 06 Jun 2017 13:53 #286672 by OB1Shinobi
by and large, white people stopped tolerating this kind of nonsense from other white people a long time ago

(open season on crackers and cops)

if a white man posted this kind of content it would be an avalanche of other white people to denounce him. and i would be one of them.

"what do we want?
when do we want it?

Larry Elder

People are complicated.
Last edit: 06 Jun 2017 13:53 by OB1Shinobi.

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06 Jun 2017 14:06 #286674 by Rosalyn J
How many views/likes on youtube would a peaceful protest get?

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06 Jun 2017 14:11 #286675 by

Rosalyn J wrote: How many views/likes on youtube would a peaceful protest get?

Are you saying that violent protests are more effective and thus warranted?

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06 Jun 2017 14:13 #286676 by Wescli Wardest
As strong of a tool as social media is, I would argue against designing a protest to gain social popularity by any means to gain views or likes. Argumentum Ad Populum is one of the logical fallacies and just because the mob riles and cheers for something does not make it right or even good.

One thing that I would hope all Jedi agree on, and maybe they don’t, is that the ends do not justify the means. The future will judge us not only by the outcome of the war but the manner in which we conduct ourselves. And they rightly should.

Our actions do not define us as Jedi only when people are watching or by the outcome of what we have accomplished but by how we live every day and what we do every day. That is the advice I would give anyone.

Monastic Order of Knights
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06 Jun 2017 14:13 #286677 by Rosalyn J

I am saying, people point their cameras at fights and firey language in the same way that they slow their car down to look at an accident

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06 Jun 2017 14:20 - 06 Jun 2017 14:22 #286680 by Kobos
Of course well I was typing this a bunch of replies appeared......anyways hopefully we can maintain this dialogue with respect.

Rosalyn, I would love of have more of your opinion also. I will just list out my experience, my opinion and hopefully some of my perspective here and see what it adds. Agreement or disagreement poor choice of wording if it occurs is not out of disrespect or intentional bias apologies in advanced if that occurs in this discourse.

I was in Ferguson MO on the first few days of protests (as well as living just south of the area in a not to much better neighborhood), I and my Gf were pretty well connected through the legit protesters; as well as some other the zealot SJW folks. I tended to be on the more anti-corporate (no I do not hate all corporations just certain ones) St. Louis is home to Monsanto, Monsanto owns a lot of corporations; some that do some pretty horrible things particularly when it comes to fixing their mistakes (don't hate the people or the corporations but asking for accountability shouldn't be too much.....I digress.
The first day of protests were actually pretty somber and though civil unrest it did not really break into violence as a widespread thing that evening, at first. However, there were isolated incidents, none of which I personally observed, this was more pushed on the news than the peaceful side, this fed and accelerated the violence (I could speculate on why but there are many reasons: we should note the arrival of out of town activist at this time). Now it is important to keep in mind that the Mike Brown Case had just been being developed and that many speculations either way were still flying at the moment. Several conflicting stories, the general atmosphere during night one was a 100% different atmosphere. I talked the gf into leaving for the evening to return homw shortly after dark. The police response to the isolated incidents of violence was dramatic to say the least. Shows of power often backfire here in the US particularly with an already agitated group, I suspected tear-gas and rubber bullets to be going off that evening (On a side note I have been hit with both not pleasant, one for a job in case of accidental exposure, one because of trespassing, gf wasn't asthmatic and never exposed that caused me concern)...... Digressing again (recalling memories does that a bit to me my apologies). After night one there was a different energy to the protest there was a lot of positive and positive leaders there; however, was also the contrast with some leaders, guess who got the press?
The second night, the energy and police response towards dusk spelled trouble. I stuck around a bit later this time to see what unfolded I hoped the more level headed would take over on both sides. I went more towards the "front" if you will. Again, the police response was unnerving to say the least, apc with loaded riflemen are a little excessive (in my opinion, also from the local police department was poor planning (opinion)); where well mannered riot police and street officers would have more likely have cooled tensions. Instead the opposite happened same thing went down both sides engaged and low and behold the dudes with giant weapons won. Again, though what was covered? Because, it certainly wasn't the prayer circles going on, nor was it the suburban churches from wealthy neighborhoods handing out water and food, it wasn't the eloquent speeches some leaders gave. So again, reports of violence and only violence undid any message of unity delivered at the gatherings. I found this particularly sad because at that time the actual story as we all believed was literally this kid was gunned down in the back in a minor scuffle with a police officer. After a bit I, violence escalating I had no reason to be there anymore that night. The next few days I was on my on shift which was a 16 hour 4 day a week shift at the recycling plant so getting there was unfortunately not really much of an option. By this time though the media had shifted the movement narrative well enough to make it us vs them and as I said some of the out of town folks did bring a direct change of the experience. My gf was asked to leave one of the following days by another protester and so she did, it wasn't a polite could you please leave. I assumed what the following weekend would unfold. It went that way at the same time the narrative presented to the mass public changed on both sides repeatedly, while not much besides intimidation by both sides expanded on the ground (to be clear I am not using sides as AA vs. White in this context, more in protesters vs. police). From there the situation degraded locally. From the perspective of being there as the movement as defined was born (according to some). The first thing noticed when it coalesced, towards a national movement was duality in leadership that formed as it grew in the media and physically, this is not bad but needs to be acknowledge that the more controversial and challenging the more a media will push and support that form of leadership. This is a failing of all of us, and I have my opinion below on an over all perspective. Above was just my perspective of the events I was in, and watched develop from less than 15 miles away. It is not more valid or less valid than any others experiences or opinions and I would love to hear similar stories.

My opinion shifts with the way in which the movement flows, but I tend to see that their is semblance of systematic racism still around us so the mindset applies and the movement valid. All lives do matter; but the original point I think I am getting at; is that we look at BLM from the wrong perspective, it ends up highlighting the wrong things. For example, to we fight the shadow of over enforcement, excessive force and police discrimination, or should we continue looking further towards the substance? There are incredible inequities between the African American and Caucasian population in most major cities, this should always be considered the main cause. I see this as unintentional from the perspectives of Caucasian people as it is more a left over from an era of more institutional racism (in my opinion is dies more and more with generations removed from it), which is why many whites feel the disgust and gave birth to the "white guilt" terminology. 75 years is not a huge amount of time applied since the major modern strides of the Civil Rights Movement in the 40's-60's. Solving what created the socioeconomic conditions which not only should breed disgust in anyone considering equality under the law a goal but in decent human rights. I also, then see a lot of the discrimination as far as pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality (this can be applied in certain situations) or the you're not my problem mentality (sad in general), this can be applied to all races based on socioeconomic standards but it is a label that sticks as a broad brush strokes on certain groups (African Americans, Native Americans, Immigrants of almost all varieties). Then comes the perception of success and of cultural melding but we should not forget the old adage that habits die hard, which people preconceive as sample quick processes that are going to be easy nor without consequences. That sucks but social change comes at a price and also takes leadership, the shock and awe came but the organization and follow up have yet to in my opinion. So, we continue to see a movement the pushes further out from the initial perspective, reasoning and ultimately it's goal. I hope that the BLM movement can pick up some charismatic and truly peaceful leaders and it could make great strides if not the civil rights movement (all people, but applied to race here) will continue but the BLM may feed a division for a short while.

I would appreciate any input here. It is not my intention nor purpose to hurt others in posting this, if it did you have my apologies feel free to contact me and let me see if I can word it properly or better yet with counter information to change my perspective. These are only experiences and opinions, in essence ideas. Let's work together to change the ideas before they become beliefs those are much harder to effect. Force be with you, I hope this becomes a great conversation with a lot of perspective it's one us USA Jedi should have and have been having for a while.


What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
Knight of the Conclave
Last edit: 06 Jun 2017 14:22 by Kobos. Reason: lots of replies posted during typing of this thesis
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06 Jun 2017 14:21 #286682 by

Rosalyn J wrote: No

I am saying, people point their cameras at fights and firey language in the same way that they slow their car down to look at an accident

Im still not seeing your point? What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying the evidence that BLM is a racist and violent group is slanted in some way because of human natures proclivity to only document the violence and not the peaceful aspects?

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06 Jun 2017 14:36 - 06 Jun 2017 14:41 #286685 by Nakis
I am at work and can not watch the video as well. I will update comments tailored to the video later.

I believe, very much so, that all government organizations should be held to high standards and I believe the public has a right to ensure that they are properly represented and treated correctly by these organizations. In this, the rise of BLM in order to address police brutality and racism is a good thing, in that the intent is to raise awareness. Forget the name "BLM" and focus on the movement itself, and trust me in that I feel the BLM moniker to be poor advertising.

As a movement itself, I have extreme issues with how it is presented and executed which unfortunately has caused it to become a divisive movement. I will post references for an interview with a former Black Panther and her thoughts on, but in it she states that there is no agenda nor real organization, and that is very important because there were rules and methods employed to ensure a cohesive message was spread and the ability to deny involvement if something went south. My first real knowledge of BLM came from watching a video of students claiming to be of BLM disturbing a studying period. An organized movement with rules, an agenda, and organization would be able to deny that and help usher in strategies and methods of civil discourse and education.

So, in general I applaud people who see that there is an issue and bringing awareness of a problem, I am saddened by the methodology and lack of control chosen over it and the subsequent anger over the ineffectiveness of these methods (Such as someone standing in the middle of a busy road and getting hit by a car and being angry when the car flees an angry mob). However, I agree that the movement serves a purpose in terms of highlighting a problem in which there is injustice. Now, that won't happen over night, and mentalities take time to change, and there is still the area of police officers do have to make snap decisions that are life and death, but with the rise of body cams and the changing populace attitude, justice will be served.

There are ways to make a splash and get many likes and views, and there are ways to spread the word without blocking off airport roads and generating anger instead of compassion and understanding. The problem is there has to be a unified presence and mindset to avoid someone from souring the public perception of your message. For instance, we as Jedi work to spread Jediism and it's ways, but if someone were to start a riot in the name of Jediism, that becomes a problem. We have an easy way of saying "No no, he's just using our name, he isn't one of us" because of doctrine, codified beliefs, and membership process, but BLM does not have that protection so a good message about raising awareness of unequal treatment becomes spoiled when someone does something that isn't entirely kosher.

Vibe: Elaine Brown on Black Lives Matter
Youtube: Dartmouth College Library Protest
Youtube: Ferguson Protester Hit by Car
Youtube: UK Heathrow Airport BLM

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Last edit: 06 Jun 2017 14:41 by Nakis.
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06 Jun 2017 14:36 #286686 by Carlos.Martinez3
Some action bring drama as does some ideas. Intentions are obvious some days. To me ... It seems this line and these lines are drawing people away from peace and moren to a type of personal segregation. Be cautious Jedi where you put your mind and heart because that which you think... You are . That which you store you will find.
Every life matters . Not just one. Many can share the same value. Personally ... Personally I don't subscribe to this idea that one matters over the other. Cops and people matter. May the Force y'all seek find y'all where y'all seek it !

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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06 Jun 2017 14:43 #286687 by Rosalyn J
Yes, I am suggesting that the characterization of BLM as violent is due to our proclivity to document violence, activating language.

I haven't said anything about the characterization of BLM as racist, but I will now.

It feels, to me as a Black person, that when the argument Black Lives Matter is countered with All Lives Matter, it belittles my experience and my struggle. Society can SAY All Lives Matter, but what is put put in place? What do the systems say. BLM is the consequence of years of trying to come to the table, years of trying to get our voice heard and years of not being listened to.

So now our furry can be dismissed because we are not inclusive enough? We are not calm enough?

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