The Problem with Black Lives Matter

I have been told that because I am a white man that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I shouldn’t talk. Seeing how I am not racist, I understand that all suffering is unique to the individual experiencing it no matter the color of their skin, the amount of money they have, their religion, their sex or sexual preference or how smart they are perceived to be; I believe that I do have an opinion that is valid.

As a wiser person, and I like to think I am , I understand that by adopting the values or tactics of ones perceived enemy’s that I will only accomplish the goals of that enemy. So if I thought that my enemy’s goals were to separate us and their values or tactics was hate and racism and I adapt hate and racism as my values or tactics then I will accomplish the segregation and separation I believed was my enemy’s goal.

“The devil doesn’t mind who does the hating so long as the hating gets done.” ~Andrew Klavan

Practical religion… In different religions you read, forgive those that hurt you, love your enemy. As a person who has suffered at the hands of others I know that my best course of action to promote healing and equality is to let it go.

“Everyone is in favor of forgiveness until there is something to forgive.” C. S. Lewis.

As Jedi we believe that, Where there is hatred I shall bring love; Where there is injury, pardon; I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console; To be understood as to understand; To be loved as to love; For it is in giving that we receive; It is in pardoning that we are pardoned…
When there is an offense made that violates a law we should act. But not everything that causes offense is a violation of law or our rights. Compassion and wisdom are paramount when dealing with people.

Have you ever met someone who might not have the highest IQ but they know how to love and they act so wise in their lives and actions then people that might have higher IQs that don’t really know how to love. This is the lesson that religion, practical religion, is showing us... a path to wisdom. A wisdom on how to interact with the soul.

If we accept each other and each person’s experiences then we can learn to coexist in a singular world that is more beautiful and wonderful.

Those are just my thoghts on it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE5o4JoyMkE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIXw7GSqS_4

Check out what Nick Cannon said about BLM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OddPn5P1es

This is why BLM exists. Even if you do everything right, you can not only get shot, but the cop can get away with it. The NRA says nothing. The jury somehow believes the officer had a reasonable right to be afraid for his life. And he had his girlfriend and child in the car. If Philando wasn't black justice would have been served. Too bad.

Agreed, One thing I want to add, is an observation when I was instructing on fire arms on the side when I was a security guard. So, I had to work with a Police Sarge who graded my students on the range scores and I graded the Police cadets so it was a third party non-bias grade.........Anyway, the threat analysis taught is very very different.......and IMO it's a fine line but it has swayed to the point that everyone is a threat first as opposed to opposite. That mixed with inherent racial bias (overt or sub-conscious) is dangerous combination. This is no easy problem to fix either (I have no idea how we go back from here) but working towards and being aware of it together is a start. Thanks for keeping this conversation going Zealot it's important that we maintain this dialog.

"being aware of it together is a start"

But you have to be aware that those biases exist, and from what I see, a large section denies their existence.

rrhodes67 wrote: "being aware of it together is a start"

But you have to be aware that those biases exist, and from what I see, a large section denies their existence.

True, hopefully though dialog here and what we take outside these "walls" can help make us as a whole more of a whole. It is not something that will be very easy nor will the numbers start large but they will eventually grow (It is my hopes anyway).

@Kobos

I sincerely thank you for your continued participation and for sharing your thoughts and ideas.

I have to admit, even though I know institutional racism exists and I know how often law enforcement gets away with killing black people I really did think that this case was going to be different. Watching the video I just knew there was no way that this officer was going to get away with it. It seemed like even he knew, after he'd done it, that he'd made a serious and costly mistake. I was shocked at the verdict in a way I haven't been in a long time. Why? Because the victim did EVERYTHING right. Now, personally I dislike the concept of guns (as a weapon) so I don't own any (even though I have gone to the shooting range and know that they are fun to shoot), but there's nothing wrong with owning a gun. He was licensed to carry and calmly informed the officer he had one. That didn't matter. His girlfriend was in the car. That didn't matter. He had a clean criminal record. That didn't matter. His kid was in the back seat. That didn't matter. This guy had absolutely ZERO reason to shoot the officer so the threat should have been ZERO. But for some reason, being black (because what else could it have been?), made he him so dangerous and unpredictable, that even though he was stopped for having a tail light out, there was a chance that he would go.... what.. feral? What is it about him that an officer would be willing to shoot first and ask questions later in this situation?

If it wasn't for activists we really wouldn't know about these cases like we do. Black people would simply keep getting reinforced the idea their lives don't matter to a lot of white people and the level of fear of the police in the black community would keep increasing. Black people already distrust the police and therefore don't help them when it comes to fighting crime. Because why would I involve the police when that would put my own life in danger. Amazingly enough, in some instances people who have called the police end up getting shot. There are people who feel that the media shows these things and black people react by thinking racism is a bigger problem than it is. This isn't true. It is when it ISN'T shown and isn't shown for what it is that Black people see America HIDING its racism problem. And why do you hide something? Because you don't want to deal with it and because you want to hold on to it.

And I understand why many whites don't want to talk about it. They feel like it isn't an issue because it's not their issue; because they aren't personally racist. That's understandable. But by having that conversation we normalize those who aren't racist as opposed to allowing the racists to believe they are the silent majority. Because how could they be racist unless there were certain ideas in their heads; ideas reinforced by other whites and never challenged because those ideas are never exposed or discussed with someone who has the knowledge, will, and testicular fortitude to challenge them? If every reason for racism, like every reason for terrorism, could be pushed into the public domain, the public spotlight, and have experts discuss them, break them down, and remove all traces of ignorance.... then we'd have more progress and might potentially get closer to seeing an end to it entirely.

How? Because racism is like a religion. It is a commonly held belief that benefits from group think. The biggest threat to religion is knowledge. So therefore, ways that we can bring awareness, not only to racial issues and the fact that they exist, but also educational solutions, would really benefit all of us and help make the whole world better.

I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.



If racists don't want their kids to learn how to co-exist with other Americans then they can take their kids out of school. I feel like drugs and a lot of other problems in our society exist, in part, due to a lack of education and certain problems during childhood that don't get addressed.

ZealotX wrote: I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.

Very much agreed. One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

I've put a video to the experiment below. A bit of a watch, and a bit dated, but definitly worth the watch.



Not the version I remember watching, but gets the point across. The version I remember watching did this experiment with kids over the course of a couple of days. Was a scary but amazing watch.

Also, there is a VR simulation of 9/11 meant to evoke an emotional response. I'd like to see that for the holocaust, slavery, etc. I don't think there's anything comes close to an experience that is happening to you.

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."

Arisaig wrote:

ZealotX wrote: I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.

Very much agreed. One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

I've put a video to the experiment below. A bit of a watch, and a bit dated, but definitly worth the watch.

Jane Elliot's Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment

Not the version I remember watching, but gets the point across. The version I remember watching did this experiment with kids over the course of a couple of days. Was a scary but amazing watch.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING Jane Elliot with me!

That was really thought provoking and I watched another video of her on the Oprah show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzycqpRZ7cY

Honestly, when I come across white people like her or Time Wise my opinion of them is much higher. It's not because I dislike other white people. It's because their level of honesty and self-reflection allows them understand me and understanding is attractive. This is why I think the conversation is good. Because the more we can communicate in a healthy and respectful way the more we can build an understanding that will have a positive effect on our relationships. And as Jane understands, it's not healthy to pretend that we aren't what we are in terms of race. We try to ignore it and it's basically like trying not to see this person. And the only reason to try to ignore what a person looks like is if there's something wrong with how they look. But yeah... she's awesome.

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."

I do agree. What this woman did was horrid. But the horrible attocities that gave birth to movements such as BLM are the result of not understanding struggle or what it is to be put down just because of something you cannot change.

This would not have to be taught long term either. Teach a generation and a lesson will never die. Is it extreme? Yes. But to combat racism, which holds back our species as a whole over a thing as dumb as the colour of someone's skin, one must teach a lasting lesson.

To be able to step into someone else's shoes, to be put from the perceived "better race" to the "lower race" because of something you can't change, allows one to understand just the level of hate (self hate or otherwise) it must involve to be a racist.

My mother taught me this lesson from a very young age. I remember it well. I still see race (how could you not?), but it is little more than something that marks someone as who they are, not as less or more than their fellow man.

I can understand why you'd disagree. It is a drastic thing I propose. But if racism doesn't end naturally then I think it should be taught so that we may see the end of a frankly childish worldview.

His blade defends the helpless;
His Shield shelters the forsaken;
His justice undoes the wicked;

Above is just three lines of the Knight's code. We can spend a lifetime defending the helpless and sheltering the forsaken. We can also spend the rest of our lives undoing the wicked. But a Jedi also teaches.

His image brings peace;
His code breaks the darkness;
His legend brings light.

Above is what we do as teachers. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he's fed for life. The same can be said for this. Teach a generation to see past fickle things such as skin colour or ethnicity, and you change the world.

I know this will never be taught in school to the level I envision. It saddens me that racism will probably live on until this world ends. So I teach this lesson to myself and my future children so that they may teach theirs, and so on and so forth. Perhaps this mindset of compassion will become more commonplace one day.

There needs to be a distinction made between "learning" something and "experiencing" something. The Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes demonstration is meant to make people experience discrimination rather than just learn about it second hand. Right or wrong is debatable, but the reaction to this experience will be more visceral than simply reading about racism or other discrimination in a book.

I won't belittle BLM or try to compare the experience that black people have with law enforcement to my privileged upbringing, but the closest equivalency I have experienced is living with cancer. I don't feel discriminated against, but I can definitely tell you there is a difference between understanding cancer as a disease intellectually and actually experiencing it. Sometimes you have to actually go through the experience to really understand what is happening. My brother can learn about cancer, but he hasn't experienced it, so there will always be some disconnect. Just as I am not black, I will never know what it is to actually experience the institutional racism in our U.S. society. I can learn about it and try to change the culture, but I can never truly say I "get it". Instead, I try to acknowledge that the BLM movement raises legitimate concerns that need to be addressed by all of us, not just the black community.

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."

Black children and white children are already being put through "it" except what they're being put through is not an experiment.

The only thing Jane changed was the physical basis on which to judge. She changed it (from skin color) to eye color.

It is natural to see someone being mistreated as an abhorrent thing. But her experiment is temporary. Children learn racism and when they grow, their attitudes are not some temporary experiment. They are permanent and have permanent consequences.

Some parents spank their children based on the idea that to inflict temporary pain will train their child to avoid a lifetime of hurt. One of the reactions to her experiment was that it was harsh. People didn't want to witness that. And she was simply mean, rude, and treated people differently. She didn't hurt anyone. There were no lynchings. There was no cross burnings. No one had their foot cut off. No one was whipped so that their skin came off and left permanent scar tissue.

Some people think that because these things no longer occur or don't occur to the extent they once did, that racism is over. No, it's not. The fundamental psychology that allows people to be treated this way is still with us. And it is this fundamental psychology that is at the heart of racism and that's what her experiment deals with.

This isn't a matter of experience. In my opinion.

There is plenty of history both new and old that tells of great atrocity made against the white race. Including slavery that was sometimes worse than how blacks were treated (As history tells)

Yet that is not experience enough in the eyes of others.

I can sit here and tell you that I have experienced Racism. Being in an International High school and it's natural segregation of the students races. Being looked at like I was an alien for daring to even attempt to sit at There table (ended up sitting alone after that)

But that experience will never be enough in the eyes of other races. Not in there opinion.

My daughter has been bullied by blacks because she is white.....I have had to wipe her tears and force her out the door when she was fearful to go because of the treatment of the other students.

But that isn't the right kind of experience in other races eyes. We are told that it is "Not the same." and that we can "Never Understand"

So who exactly has the right to decide which experience is more important to have than the other?

Who has that right and that authority?

Simply put. No one.

Nor are we meant to experience other peoples experiences. That should never be our goal. We are each unique and beautiful people because of these experiences both the good and the bad.

No. What we need is the courage to lead our local communities towards Positive action and results. Not bullying experiences into others because you feel justified to share your pain.

I'm not sure I agree. I've seen where politicians in some cities were forced to live with a disability for a day. Does it give them the full experience. No, but it does open their eyes to some of the barriers that are faced. I used the same idea for a speech in college. I removed someone's ability to use their hands They then had to carry their books, operate the doors, etc. The speech was on the importance of the Americans with Disabilities Act. You can tell people what it's like all the time, but for many people it goes in one ear and out the other, unless they are allowed to see it first hand. It's kind of like that "walk a mile in their shoes" thing.

@Senan

That was a brilliant response. Thank you.


Cancer can definitely kill you if it goes untreated. BLM is like an x-ray, saying "HEY!! THERE'S CANCER HERE!" Does the x-ray cure cancer? No. It's not the x-ray's cancer. It's our (society) cancer.

A lot of sick people don't like to go to the doctor. Some would rather die than get treatment. Some wait so long that treatment is more difficult; so difficult that it may not be worth the effort.

This too is similar to racism. It is a cancer in our society and when it's not happening to you it's easy to ignore. I watched someone die of stage IV lung cancer. She knew she was going to die and she felt powerless to stop it. Black people also feel powerless to stop it because racism is a result of the "other" group having the power.

For me, there is a lot of "Jedi and Sith" (speaking of the franchise canon) in how this works because The Sith gain power for their own sake and if you're in chains then that's your problem. My attraction to the Jedi is because they spend time, through reflection/meditation/etc., working to rid themselves and become immune to the corruption that comes with all the power they have.

If a person understands power... they have to understand corruption. And if they understand both and can choose from the beginning... this is a person who is conscious. Everyone else is asleep, being changed and evolving based on all of the power they have, and not noticing.

Trisskar wrote: I can sit here and tell you that I have experienced Racism. Being in an International High school and it's natural segregation of the students races. Being looked at like I was an alien for daring to even attempt to sit at There table (ended up sitting alone after that)

This is exactly the experience I am speaking of. You can't "know" it until it has happened to you.

Trisskar wrote: But that experience will never be enough in the eyes of other races. Not in there opinion.

My daughter has been bullied by blacks because she is white.....I have had to wipe her tears and force her out the door when she was fearful to go because of the treatment of the other students.

But that isn't the right kind of experience in other races eyes. We are told that it is "Not the same." and that we can "Never Understand"

So who exactly has the right to decide which experience is more important to have than the other?

Who has that right and that authority?

Simply put. No one.

I disagree. Each individual has the right to that authority, they are just not allowed to have it. White people, mostly men, have enjoyed lording that authority over others since the very beginning of U.S. history. Just as you have the right to feel discriminated against because of your experience, black people have the right to feel discriminated against based on their experience, but white people have had the voice and the authority to both prevent discrimination against themselves and promote it against others.

The key is that we are able to recognize that no one person or race or sex or gender is more important than another, but they are all important. No act of discrimination should go ignored, which means every instance of it should be addressed the same. Right now, in the U.S., that is not the case.

Trisskar wrote: Nor are we meant to experience other peoples experiences. That should never be our goal. We are each unique and beautiful people because of these experiences both the good and the bad.

It absolutely should be our goal. It is called empathy. By trying to identify with and understand the experiences of others, we learn to show compassion. Even if we can't directly experience what others do, we should do our best to try. If you ignore or marginalize the experiences of others, you are saying that only your experience is important. This selfishness how discrimination starts in the first place.

Trisskar wrote: No. What we need is the courage to lead our local communities towards Positive action and results. Not bullying experiences into others because you feel justified to share your pain.

Fully agree with the course of action, but to pretend like the individual experiences of white people are equal to the collective experience of institutional racism against black people in the U.S. is indefensible. White people have systematically "bullied" black and brown (and asian and...) people for hundreds of years in the U.S. and elsewhere around the world. Whether you or I personally had a hand in it or have been bullied by black people now as a result is not justification for denying there is a serious problem here.