Disturbance in the force

@ Desolous

YES! some one gets it. Even with all our "power" we couldn't destroy the world its self. Whats in danger is the world of man. The Force is trying to show us this.

@ Alex

If by "not separate from nature" you mean that we still function on the same food water air that other animals do and that we are of the earth and our bodies are only on loan and will soon have to be returned? Than yes Alex we're not separate from nature... =.="

If thats what your talking about well I have no argument there. How ever thats not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the distance and indifference we show for nature that NO other living things shows. That is not very natural. If you want to use the word capacity than we'll use that word to. Since we have the capacity to do such unnatural things we also have the capacity to bring balance to these things. Thats what I suggest. We have the capacity to correct this disturbance.

"So,mankind is an 'agent' of nature" Hmm...Tribals are agents of nature one thing you would have learned from me if you trained under me is that "WE" are not mankind. (Brenna knows this) Though we didn't cause the five which preceded naturally humans can cause things to go extinct. Like the giant elk. HOWEVER! tribals didn't cause extinctions out of indifference like ivory hunters do. :dry:

"It is the policy of totalitarian agriculture to wipe out unwanted species. If ancient foragers hunted any species to extinction ,it certainly wasn't because they wanted to wipe out their own food supply" - B

In other words we dont bring 200 species to extinction because we're hungry, we farm all our food(meat included), we do it because they're in the way of our mini-mall.

Whats natural about that?

Whyte Horse wrote: These are all interesting points and relevant to this disturbance. My gut feeling is that there is something very wrong with the world and it's reached a tipping point. My own research(and others') has shown that the source of this is income inequality. Perhaps I feel it more strongly because I live in one of the most unequal societies on the planet and am reminded of it constantly. I also tend to tune in to several activist networks and get lots of info from the front lines.

If income inequality were the cause then why were governments in medieval times not toppled daily?

Income inequality isn't some new thing that's existed in the past 100 years, it is something that has been around for the past 5000 years...

This is ignoring the fact that even in that time 'inequality' has increased, the poorer have still become richer in that time - I don't see people on the streets of London starving to death and dying of cholera.

What is different now is that as the poor have become richer they have been able to enter into a place that would 'normally' only be reserved for the super rich. They are now able to communicate and organise where before they were isolated. We have become more caring a civil and conscious of other people's rights so are more empathetic to their position (I am technically in that bottom percentage - and a year and a half ago had no money and a 2-day a week job...).

Any talk of 'critical mass' like that's some kind of definable number is silly. Critical mass is a percentage. Protests now are much larger than they used to be because there are more people... Independence day is a reminder of just that. It was much smaller... because there were fewer people... but it attained a 'critical mass' enough to rebel and cause real change...

Daniel, your arguments are proving every point I was attempting to clarify. It is the perceived "distance" and the "indifference" by which we approach the rest of Earth which characterises that 'separation'. Of course we are mankind, for we are integrated into the process of all the evolutionary factors since Life began. Yes, even our mini-malls.

Furthermore, other species do exterminate/deplete their own food supplies. That is what occurs when there are really no predators preying on them (as has happened with our species). This is what Watts meant when he said that "any permantly successful species will drive itself to extinction", and most likely take a lot of other species with it.

Nature has blessed (and cursed) us with the gift of Reason. Through this, we indeed have gone about blowing apart mountains and damming rivers and building nuclear weapons. Yet, it is also through this that we may come to the understanding that we cannot dominate Nature, that we must live with it, as it. Hunter gatherers had their problems as well - but they also were mankind in the process of evolving. Research has shown that the mastery of fire, as early as about 850 000 years ago has lead to adaptations in our digestive systems, including the teeth. We have evolved to nourish ourselves by cooked food. We have further evolved by the selective breeding of cultivated plants (for instance, broccoli, cauliflower and cabbage are all the same species).

Since by reason we have been able to accomplish these things, then yes, we would have the capacity to bring about a balance. This does not imply a return to hunter/gatherer existence for we are no longer 'naturally' equipped to live/survive under those conditions. Yet, in that balance there is still a place for mini-malls - just maybe not the economic structure which needs them.

... and we're still tribal.

Alexandre Orion wrote: On the other hand, Maître Jestor, one may counsel caution for being positive at 98 % of the time. I personally do not feel it to be resumed by numbers, but that leaves about 48 % of negative left to come back and bite one in the arse.

:pinch:

As Campbell said...

Say "Yes!"...

Maybe I phrased that wrong... :huh:

I embrace it all, 'good', 'bad', whatever... I try not to weigh the value of each moment.. Instead, remembering their is only this moment, and the others dont really matter...

But, now Im getting off topic... :blush:

@ Daniel...

The story being told ends there, but, it could be continued...

In our daily lives, the same could be said if one looks back... I hope others can see this, lol...

TOTJO Doctrine wrote: There is no Chaos: There is Harmony.

Akkarin wrote: If income inequality were the cause then why were governments in medieval times not toppled daily?

There is no easy answer to that but suffice it to say that in order to topple a medieval gov't you had to storm a castle, kill all the soldiers, and then kill the king. You can see an exhaustive list of governments that no longer exist here List of former sovereign states . You could probably make the case that the more inequality a society has, the more likely it is to fail/topple/change/etc.

Akkarin wrote: This is ignoring the fact that even in that time 'inequality' has increased, the poorer have still become richer in that time - I don't see people on the streets of London starving to death and dying of cholera.

Inequality decreased briefly from around 1850 to 1960 thanks to unions, medicine, human rights, etc. Unfortunately, that is all being reversed. If you don't see people starving on the streets and dying of cholera, you need only wait or go to one of your neighboring countries where it is already happening like: Spain, Greece, Portugal, etc.

Akkarin wrote: What is different now is that as the poor have become richer they have been able to enter into a place that would 'normally' only be reserved for the super rich. They are now able to communicate and organise where before they were isolated. We have become more caring a civil and conscious of other people's rights so are more empathetic to their position (I am technically in that bottom percentage - and a year and a half ago had no money and a 2-day a week job...).

Any talk of 'critical mass' like that's some kind of definable number is silly. Critical mass is a percentage. Protests now are much larger than they used to be because there are more people... Independence day is a reminder of just that. It was much smaller... because there were fewer people... but it attained a 'critical mass' enough to rebel and cause real change...

I agree things are different now. We live in the information age and almost everyone has internet access. What's really happening is governments are losing control of information. I can just go online and see a livestream of Egypt's protests and talk to them directly; and then when I hear CNN saying it's a military coup against the people or some BS like that I know who's lying. We can see the emperor has no clothes... we can see the man behind the curtain pretending to be the wizard of Oz... see the cracks in the facade.

In all honesty, in my 38 years on this planet, there has never been so many protests and so large and for so long. I have to call my grandmother and have her recall the 1930's because that's how far back you need to go to find anything comparable and even then it's just the US, but now things are all over the globe so it's even bigger. I dunno what critical mass is, but I do know the hundred monkey effect .

What's really frightening is how people will freak out when they find out they've been duped, hoodwinked, made into chumps. I think it's happening right now and most people are in shock and living 2 lives like some kind of Sybil multiple-personality-disorder where you repress everything into one persona and let out the persona that fits the moment.

You seem like a nice guy Akkarin and I hate giving nice people bad news

@ Jestor

YES! Campbells right say yes! "Yes Daniel I'll take a look at what your saying and take it all in. Then I'll judge it for my self." That would be great if you said yes. First you have to learn it though... :pinch:

As for the code. When you tell some one thats never heard the code "There is no Chaos: There is Harmony" they'll have a certain understanding of it. When you study the code you'll understand it in different ways. I'm sure we can all agree on that much. So try it this way... If there is only chaos: there can be no harmony. This means that chaos and harmony are both part of the same things. (yes we've had this conversation before) if one actually contradicted the other than they both would cease to be. Both are needed in order to have balance. Extremes do not exist just to contradict each other... bla bla bla.
So in this case there is way to much chaos and the proper attention needs to be payed in order to become more harmonic.


@Alex

For give me Alex i should clarify what I mean by saying "We are not humanity". What I mean is that we do not represent humanity. We only represent our culture. The culture that has distanced its self from nature. Though my arguments prove your points I still feel as though we're at odds.

Furthermore, other species do exterminate/deplete their own food supplies. That is what occurs when there are really no predators preying on them (as has happened with our species). This is what Watts meant when he said that "any permantly successful species will drive itself to extinction", and most likely take a lot of other species with it.

You're right other animals do deplete their food supplies and in turn must succumb to natures negative feed back. This is also a disturbance that fixes its self almost harmlessly. Our culture on the other hand has found a way to override natures negative feed back. This is why our population is large enough so that we can actually argue about how many people filled what protests.
As for Watts...thats very well said on his part. Only I haven't heard of any species being permanently successful. Not even humans and thats the point. They day may come when men fail but why should it be by our own hand in such a tragic and foolish way?

We are no more cursed with our ability to reason than a bird is cursed with its ability to fly. We cant dominate nature and once again that my POINT! Not looking at this disturbance is an ignorant turn of the head while our culture reassures us that everything will be fine. Every thing wont be fine because its currently NOT fine. But i will give you some credit for the observing hunter/gatherer evolution and our selective farming. Yet again i have to point out that in order to farm our favorite foods we have to kill every living thing on the land we plan to cultivate. Hunter/Gatherers dont do that as I've stated before. What I never stated before is the idea that we should go back to those ways. I'm looking through my older post and I dont see it. The planet simply couldn't sustain 7 billion hunter/gatherers. Any time I talk about tribals its to give you a contrast of people that know how to live on this planet without destroying it or them selves. I'm pretty sure that if you wanted to build a mini-mall near a tribal group they would disagree. I'm sure if animals could talk they would refuse to give up their homes in order to build a mini-mall in its place. There is place for mini-mall how ever and thats in our cities. Its to bad there is no place in nature for our cities since a city in our culture is: a settlement that exceeds the capacity of its local resources and must import more resources. Again not very natural since no other creature on the planet does this.

Are we a tribe? A tribe is a group of people that work together for a common goal. In this case survival. We as a culture are not a tribe since as a culture we do not work together. The proof is with our global wars on not just other humans but other species as well. I'm sorry to say this so bluntly but the people of our culture are the enemies of life and the planet.

@ Jestor

YES! Campbells right say yes! "Yes Daniel I'll take a look at what your saying and take it all in. Then I'll judge it for my self." That would be great if you said yes. First you have to learn it though...

As for the code. When you tell some one thats never heard the code "There is no Chaos: There is Harmony" they'll have a certain understanding of it. When you study the code you'll understand it in different ways. I'm sure we can all agree on that much. So try it this way... If there is only chaos: there can be no harmony. This means that chaos and harmony are both part of the same things. (yes we've had this conversation before) if one actually contradicted the other than they both would cease to be. Both are needed in order to have balance. Extremes do not exist just to contradict each other... bla bla bla.
So in this case there is way to much chaos and the proper attention needs to be payed in order to become more harmonic.

Pretty presumptuous to think I have not considered what you say...

Just because I disagree...:lol:...

Maybe I don't see the story as you do, therefore, my opinions will not be the same, as I have come to different conclusions...

++++++++++
When one still sees the opposing sides, (and I can, when I look to see what others are saying), then of course, their seems to be a tipping of the scale...

Always does...

Balance, is seldom a perfect point, but a gentle swaying back and forth....

+++++++++
Do you see the world getting worse?

Or do you see more people awakening to the path we are possibly headed down, therefore initiating change?

Or, do you just see us adjusting our path? (This one is me, )

++++++++

They day may come when men fail but why should it be by our own hand in such a tragic and foolish way?

Short of an advanced race of beings, nothing on this planet currently can stop us except ourselves....

Have you seen the movie, "The Happening"?

The planet fights back, to rid itself of a plague...

Us...

Lol, interesting concept.... Interesting movie...

++++++
Im not saying we shouldn't be taking care of the planet, or that "everything is OK the way it is"....

Im saying, "it is what it is"...

Not good, not bad, just "IS", "BEING", "NOW"....

If you/we think a change in direction is needed, it will happen...

But, just because we say a change in direction is needed, doesn't mean our previous direction was wrong....

We can judge it that way, sure...

But remove the judgement, and its simply a change in direction...

"Why do we fall?"

"To learn how to pick ourselves back up."

++++++++++

We are no more cursed with our ability to reason than a bird is cursed with its ability to fly.

Agreed...

Our reason and intellect will be what lets our race continue....

Are we a tribe? A tribe is a group of people that work together for a common goal'

We are getting there...

But people do get attached to things...

Ego is a bitch....

I recently watched the Power of the Myth again with Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers. I found it very interesting that Joseph Campbell spoke about how even the bad and difficult times in our life should be accepted as a gift that is part of our existence and how we should even accept the difficulties that we have as part of what it is to be a living part of the world. It made me rethink how I approach the difficulties that I have in my own life.

cyran - That reminded me of what Allan Watts said about getting comfortable in your discomfort when sitting in a kneeling position.

@ Jestor

It might seems that way but its more or less just me giving as good as I get. If you reply with an opposing statement or a questions than I'll answer you the best I can. Really this is just practice and an exhibition showing that I've done my homework.

I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree just your attempt to understand. You say you've done that and thats all I could ask for. ^.^ Your conclusions might be different but again why should the story end there. Just because you have your conclusions does that mean your beyond or incapable of understanding mine? Even just an attempt to understand? I'm not. My conclusion is indeed different but because I KNOW what I've learned I'm more ready than ever to listen to yours.

I've seen the planet getting worse since I was born but the world was already getting worse long before I came along. More people are waking up but 10% of 7 billion in 2011 is more than the 10% of 6 billion in 1999. This doesn't disprove your statement I just felt I should point this out before we talk about MORE people.

Now as for change? What change? If people refuse to look at the things that are ACTUALLY the problem than how can anything change? Making more laws just make more possible crime. Reform!? We've been reforming since our culture started the journey almost 10 thousand years ago.

Religions like ours help people they dont help the planet. I'm not bashing religions its just they point your attention to the horizon, the unknown, the not yet learned, the journey to come, the path ahead of us, the heavens, the hells, the stars. Not many point our attention to actual problem. The earth. Why should we help the earth? Well because we LIVE on it. :dry:

Short of an advanced race of beings, nothing on this planet currently can stop us except ourselves....

Right, what did I say? :dry: We're the ones causing these problems so we're the ones that can stop it. The planet will fight back but fight isn't the right word. The planet will use the same method it uses on ever other living thing to regulate it. Its called negative feed back. Humans will not completely fail however. The tribals I talk about all the time will survive like they have been. Unless we kill them all once our resources start to run out.

Very true Jestor. It is what is its. Now that we've established that and we know that "what this is" isn't working, lets do something about it. :whistle:

If our current direction is lethal enough to kill us and harm the planet than its pretty wrong. :dry:
But like I said I attempt to understand your conclusion. Aside from judgement we have a culture that has taken us SO FAR! We've reached the moon! This direction down the river has given us a lot but the river ends at a lethal water fall. This directions wasn't wrong but if we dont let it go it will be lethal. Yes Jestor lets change directions. Some falls you just cant get up from. Those are the ones we should change our directions from.

We do get attached to things. However its one thing to say we cant change because we're attached to this life style and quite another to say that EVERY ONE should be attached to this life style! :whistle:

It can be any simpler than this. If what your doing isn't working try something else...

This culture isn't working any more.