Question...

Alluvius wrote:

Streen wrote: I've been wondering the same thing. Sure, George Lucas consulted with him for the first Star Wars movie(s), but I think there are far better subjects and authors to spend one's time reading.... i.e.:

The Way of Zen
Everyday Tao

etc.

...And that was the purpose behind my question "Why do we care about Lucas?"

Which was to ask, why does what Lucas likes, or who Lucas consulted with rank any higher than the 1000 other people who've done research in the same field? Lucas invented the term "Jedi"...but beyond that, I see no correlation between the fictional universe created by George Lucas, and the "real" Jedi we're training to be.

The one thing that worries me on this thread tho, is that eventually it's likely to get boiled down to "if you don't like how we present the topic, why study here?". I'm hoping that we can come together in the spirit of constant improvement (of Self and community) and maybe "update" the program. Again, leave Campbell in place, but offer alternatives that preserve the intent behind the Campbell material while being more conducive to how some people assimilate information.

It might also not be a bad idea to keep in mind that everyone who comes here is not a "fresh n00b" to the subjects of religion, spirituality, and mythology (or storytelling). I'm not suggesting a "placement exam" or anything, but maybe include some more advanced material that still qualifies as "beginner" subjects?

Because as Akkarin just said, we are young, here at TOTJO...

When I was Knighted two years ago, there were 2 that year... This year, we have had 7 or 8, I think, without checking my thread of "2012 Year End Report" stuff (to be published after the first of the year to let everyon know what went on in 2012)

When you all get to the point where you are training, what you think, the books you treasure, will get added to our lesson list, and then, as more "non-noobs" get into the upper enchelon, we will have more stuff to draw upon... Currently, ren is the only council memebr who A. Doesnt train others privatly (apprenticeship), and B. doesnt care for Campbell or Watts...

When you all get through what we present to everyone, then we will look at your "lessons", and learn what you think is important, (what, and who...lol)



We, all current Council members (so I think), are excited to where this can go V and Wescli, Adder and the other Knew Knights, are some of the first to complete the training as it stands, and they are purposing changes in the Knights forum...

Things are changeing, but, we cant do it all at once, or else its like sorting the cards in the deck by throwing them up in the air, and starting there...

We have a system, as flawed as you (anyperson, not aimed at anyone particular, even myself, I would do things different, but for the sake of unity, I work woth the majority)

Anyway, we have a system, and as flawed as people might think it is, we have to start somewhere...

Do you know how many people come here, suggest this and that, and then disappear?

The numbers of people who start the program, versus those who complete it is WAYYYY different...

So, those who hang in there, and get to the level where they are part of the, uh, (what word do I want?), wheels and cogs of making TOTJO work, are making changes...

There is lots going on behind the scenes...

As far as telling you to leave, Mr. Alluvius...

lol, that is always your prerogative...

But, for all we know, a new member could not be who they say they are... Its happened...

So, while we are listening, we also have the longevity of TOTJO in our minds...

Like all institutions, as soon as it is wrote down, it is outdated...

many of the alternate authors that have been suggested are in fact used in the degree lessons, as well as some apprenticeship lessons...

neitzche, james allen, etc...some of them are a bit dry, or a bit more advanced then what some are capable of handling at the start, i understand that not everyone doing the ip is a "noob" but it must also be understood that not everyone doing the ip is familiar with philosophical/religious study either.

the ip has to be a bit watered down to accomodate a broad base...that is also why we have the apprenticeship lessons, and the degree lessons...to fill the voids and expand the boundries established by the ip.

as akkarin mentioned there have been numerous changes, and additions made to the ip and apprenticeships...and over the years we have seen alot of change in the membership...moreso in the past year then in previous years...

When I first joined here like many others I had no idea about Joseph Campbell and Alan Watts, in fact I was wondering why I have to read them and how that would help me. But the truth is that most of us reached here after seeing a Star Wars movie or coming across this franchise so it is natural to have access to materials related to the beginning of all this. Reading or hearing those lessons can help us to see things from another perspective.

Yes it could be confusing that we claim to be non-fictional jedi yet we relate our IP to fiction and George Lucas. But I believe that by using those lessons and symbols we can understand better the differences between what George Lucas had in mind and what we want to be. Let's not forget that some of the Star Wars teachings are real and fit perfectly to our daily life. One of those which I find most useful is "Your focus determines your reality!". I don't think that we can completely separate the term Jedi from Star Wars.

Like someone pointed out it would be a great thing to have an alternative to the IP. But imagine you join university courses ... even there you have to follow a certain set of classes. The goal of the lessons is to test your patience, to help you discover yourself and reveal a bit of all that through your journal to a future master. Later no one can stop you to read anything else you find suitable for yourself and share it with the rest. If someone finds it difficult to follow the lessons that person can always ask for guidance. It's not a rush to finish everything in a certain period of time. As for those who believe that the IP is not a match for their training and knowledge, maybe they need to take a step back and re-evaluate what means to be a Jedi and what is the purpose of the lessons for everyone.

I did the IP in 2008 and to be honest I find nothing wrong with it. I improved myself by doing those lessons and that encouraged me to search more and read books on various subjects from philosophy to mythology, history of beliefs, spiritual development and anything that would help me evolve.

That is just my opinion and I hope it gives one answer to the original question.

...So many things...where to begin...

First, I think I should state that my original question was answered by Akkarin and BrJohn, and thank yous to them for that.

Now...

I have stated more than once that I had no intention of suggesting alternative sources of info, and only did so after being asked to. I was simply curious about the thought process that lead to the IP as it stands, and as I stated already, I believe that has been answered. As for Watts...I'm not sure who first decided that I was speaking against Alan Watts being in the training materials, but as I suggested him as an alternative, I think we can agree, that I have no issue with his material. As for Campbell, I acknowledge that some may gain from what he has to say and how he says it. I stated multiple times that I was not advocating the removal of his materials, only the inclusion of alternatives. Choice is what I ended up advocating here, even though I started with a simple question. I have also already stated that I have/had no intention of "ruffling feathers"...I only had a question. I had no idea why I needed that question answered, however, until seeing it unfold on this thread. My purpose is served, although I am enjoying the discussion of the merits of Campbell. A couple of you have even come close to changing my mind about him.

A couple of points I'd like to specifically address:
It is correct that if I were seeking a college degree, I would have no input in the course material. But it is also correct that I'm not seeking a college degree here, nor would I as I have zero interest in a degree in comparative religion from an online church. I'm seeking to understand what makes the "training" material relevant, and to do that I needed an answer that was a fair sight better than "because we said so" or "because I gained from it". As I said, I believe I have my answer. Also, I feel that it's appropriate to state here that just because I don't find it relevant, does not mean I don't understand what's being said. Either way, in the end, I'm seeking a greater understanding of the Force as the binding/penetrating "Tao" that it is and I feel like I'm being told that in order to do that, I must first learn how the mythic cycle and allegory work...so that I can understand how Luke is a mythic hero figure. In what way is Luke relevant to the real force? Except perhaps as parable...and to that end, I would say that Anakin serves as a much better example.

I only brought up the "if you don't like how we do things, then get out" thing because I've seen that come up on other threads that involved questioning the status quo. I have no intention of leaving. But I also have no intention of following blindly. I question the status quo and always have, I see it as a very good thing. To be honest, even when I agree with something, I'm likely to question it, and to do so publicly. I question publicly so that everyone may gain from the experience. I could have asked in PM why we use Campbell, and I would have eventually gotten my answer. But how do such "closed door" inquiries help the community?

One other thought, then I have to shut down my computer and go home for the day...
I realize that from your points of view, I'm "the new guy". You guys have been here for months/years already, and I've been here for what? A few weeks? A month maybe? You "all" (talking to the council and senior members here) know each other, and trust each other. You all know the effort that has been, and still is being, expended in preservation of TOTJO. Seeing to it's longevity and all. But from my point of view, you are the "new guys". I know what I've been thru, and what I've already studied/learned from life and books. I trust my instincts implicitly, they've kept me alive this long. And while you may be watching me and judging my worth as a member (and I'm sure from time to time whether or not I'm simply "trolling the site" comes up), I'm watching you, the leadership and senior members. Trying to learn about you and judge whether this is a community that it would be healthy for me to belong to. All I can say is, the jury's still out for both of us (I would think), but so far I enjoy most of what I'm seeing here. The only thing that bothers me is the lack of transparency, and the apparent "touchiness" of the leadership when it comes to answering, what should be routine, operational questions. The hows and whys of training materials for instance...

All that said, please understand that I'm feeling a bit under the weather lately, and I may not be taking commentary in the spirit in which it's intended, and I may be coming across with more "hostility" than I intend. If that is the case, then please accept my deepest apologies for the misinterpretation. I don't necessarily think that any behavior is acceptable just "because I'm sick"...but I do think that an unclear head can contribute to misunderstandings and flaring tempers. I love you all, and I'm really not trying to be difficult.

Although others may not have got it, I hope you got my little joke... I was just teasing about you leaving...

You know what? I hope you stick around really...

Many of us have been doing this for years before ever joining an online community... I'm working on a litte over 30 years... As are a few others here...

Yea, your learning of us is getting better, lol... You can't see our faces or body language to see our smiles and relaxed attitudes...

We do enjoy the questions...

When you ask a question, no matter what it is, one person could address it with you, and you'd be like "oh, ok"... Two of us address it, and you might say, "oohhh, I'm getting it"...

But multiple answers, from multiple people must surely seem like an onslaught... lol...

But I assure you, its all in conversational tones ... lol...

Actually, there are people who we watch, but you are not one of them (keep your eyes on Wescli, he steals my cookies I think...)...

The transparency you are looking for is right here... This is the truth, and who we are...

Our "touchiness" might seem, uh, apparent (?), but, when people ask a question, and are not happy with the answer, they often say, "you are just playing games", meaning we are just messing with you, but we are not....

(Seriously, keep your eye in Wescli, I think him and Resticon, and maybe ren, are out to get my cookies....)

I know you know, but as i cannot read your mind or you read mine... Maybe your question isn't phrased in a way in which I understand, and will give you the answer closest to what you are seeking...

lol...

I'm one of the wordiest, because I try to be a clear as possible...

But, as so many things have so many ways of being seen, its a wonder we ever get the 'right' answer, to the 'right' question....

And we love you to my brother, we take no offence....

What me? I wouldn't take your cookies! :whistle:

I have been known to snack on cookies that were just laying about and nobody obviously wanted! :ohmy: I mean.... just because they're in a lunchbox, inside a locked locker, in a locked room that someone is standing guard in front of doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't for public consumption!

hahahahahhahhaha :woohoo:

I think what is meant by "If you don't like it here, you don't have to stay" is "do all the judging you want, we don't care... unless you get in our way" in which case we usually tell people to go where the grass is greener. No amount of questioning/whining/trolling/insulting-totjo-outside-totjo is going to change the fact that the totjo leadership concerns itself only with totjo matters and do whatever it feels must be done to make totjo a better place. Basically, we answer the questions if we feel doing so would yield a positive outcome.

The constant whining I've witnessed (this coming from a whiner) in the community over the years does not seem to have helped anyone in any way imo.

You're welcome Alluvius.

The Initiates Program is optional. It's not a condition of membership.

Why not make a topic about The Force as The Tao?

Jestor wrote: I'm one of the wordiest, because I try to be a clear as possible...

I am a big fan of clarity myself. And have, once or twice, been accused of being a bit "wordy" as well...on occasion.

ren wrote: I think what is meant by "If you don't like it here, you don't have to stay" is "do all the judging you want, we don't care... unless you get in our way" in which case we usually tell people to go where the grass is greener. No amount of questioning/whining/trolling/insulting-totjo-outside-totjo is going to change the fact that the totjo leadership concerns itself only with totjo matters and do whatever it feels must be done to make totjo a better place. Basically, we answer the questions if we feel doing so would yield a positive outcome.

The constant whining I've witnessed (this coming from a whiner) in the community over the years does not seem to have helped anyone in any way imo.

I appreciate, Ren, that it was you that answered this issue as you are one of the main people telling others to "get lost if they don't like it". I think I understand a little better now where you're "coming from" in that statement. It seems reasonable in this "new" light...even a bit passive. (Where as I had always seen it as an aggressive thing to say before.)

As Jestor said, I'm beginning to get to know you guys better now.

Br. John wrote: You're welcome Alluvius.

The Initiates Program is optional. It's not a condition of membership.

Why not make a topic about The Force as The Tao?

I know the initiate's program is not a condition of membership, but it is a condition of "advancement"...and that's why it matters to me. To be completely honest, if it were a condition of membership, I never would have joined. lol

As for creating a topic about the Force as the Tao, I would love to, and I've considered it many times...I just can't figure out how it starts. Once I do tho, rest assured, it will be posted.



P.S. (Jestor) I have gotten the impression from some of his posts that Wescli may indeed be a cookie thief...still not sure about the other two.

As we all came here following different routes, we (the teachers here in the community) will teach what we know...

I am poop at teaching anyone metaphysics, or getting to in-depth with the SW EU...

But, there are those here, and who will join, who will chatter on about it, and be able to talk in comparative sentences...

My specialty comes in on those who have no formal schooling, or study of any kind...

My whole life, all I have done is posed a question to myself, and tried to reason out an answer, based on the information I have, from the world (my world) around me...

As we cannot, and do not follow paths exactly, this will help us diversify...

If a newbie joins, and is an EU fan, he will have a better time following a course laid out by an EU Master...

A Campbell, Watts, Descartes, Allen, heck, even Christian, newbie will find enough similarity to follow along, but when they begin to instruct, they will add their "flavor"... lol...

It will be great!