The Obtaining of Knowledge

Resticon wrote:

SoulSeeker wrote: do you believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? If not, why do you believe in the Force?

Whether I believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa is irrelevant.

An outright refusal to answer the question, and it's very easy to see why. You know that the concept of the Tooth Fairy is ridiculous and therefore would be embarrased to admit you believe in it. Yet you want to believe in the Force. Thus, when I ask into how believing in the Force can compare to believing in the Tooth Fairy, you instinctively know that the grounds for belief is the very same. Neither require any evidence whatsoever. You cannot answer "well the Tooth Fairy has no evidence, but with the Force we observe this and this and this, and therefore it seems likely there is some truth to it", because there isn't. There's nothing you can point to to make it more likely, no references, no logical reasoning, no nothing. So it's only natural you would refuse to answer the question entirely- you don't want to accept it. But here's where it gets amusing, because despite this you make a point of saying

Resticon wrote: while I am pointing out your fallacious arguements Soulseeker,

Lol! So you can't answer any of my questions, can't provide even the most minute piece of physical evidence or even plain logic for your belief, but are so desperate to pretend your belief is true that you have to make out you are the one who is somehow "pointing out fallacies". Well done. :laugh:

Resticon wrote: Since I attribute the "Force" as the "Living Force of Creation" then no matter what creation myth you believe, it is the same as the "Force". The "Force" could be the Big Bang, God, Allah, the Holy Spirit, or even the Force itself.

Argument of assosciation which contradicts others' definitions of the Force, implying there isn't even a set definition to begin with, which does further to destroy your premise.

Sheuthem wrote:

SoulSeeker wrote:

Barrera wrote: Yes. I know its wrong to point it out, but Jedi believe in honesty. Oh look! Honesty, something else you can't prove exists.

Actually, honesty can very well be proven to exist. Simply enter a court as a witness, and if you that the testimony of other witnesses are true, they have just proven that the concept of honesty is existent.

Just because the testimony of two or three witnesses matches up, does not mean that they are being honest.

Fallacy of misrepresentation. I never said because it "matches up", I said you *are* a witness, and the testimony of other witnesses agrees with you. In other words, you observe something and another says "this is true". It's no surprise you want to disprove that honesty exists, though- that's the only way you could justify your own dishonest beliefs.

Sheuthem wrote: Plus, you have just used an analogy to prove that honesty exits, while you mocked my use of an analogy to show, not that the Force exists, but how I understand that Force to works for me. The point of my Salt analogy was that in order for someone to understand what Salt tastes like, they must experience it for themselves.

You: "The Tooth Fairy exists."
Me: "Really? I've never seen any evidence for her. Have you?"
You: "Well it's like salt. If you haven't tasted it, I can't describe it to you."
Me: "Okay... so you mean you can't describe her?"
You: "Oh I didn't want to show that the Tooth Fairy exists, just my understanding of how she works."
And now me again: "Alright. But where's the evidence?"

All in all, your responses were

Sheuthem wrote: a very poor argument. Try again.

SoulSeeker wrote:

Resticon wrote:

SoulSeeker wrote: do you believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? If not, why do you believe in the Force?

Whether I believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa is irrelevant.

An outright refusal to answer the question, and it's very easy to see why. You know that the concept of the Tooth Fairy is ridiculous and therefore would be embarrased to admit you believe in it. Yet you want to believe in the Force. Thus, when I ask into how believing in the Force can compare to believing in the Tooth Fairy, you instinctively know that the grounds for belief is the very same. Neither require any evidence whatsoever. You cannot answer "well the Tooth Fairy has no evidence, but with the Force we observe this and this and this, and therefore it seems likely there is some truth to it", because there isn't. There's nothing you can point to to make it more likely, no references, no logical reasoning, no nothing. So it's only natural you would refuse to answer the question entirely- you don't want to accept it. But here's where it gets amusing, because despite this you make a point of saying

Resticon wrote: while I am pointing out your fallacious arguements Soulseeker,

Lol! So you can't answer any of my questions, can't provide even the most minute piece of physical evidence or even plain logic for your belief, but are so desperate to pretend your belief is true that you have to make out you are the one who is somehow "pointing out fallacies". Well done. :laugh:

Taking a half a sentence from a paragraph and using it out of context is a prime example of a strawman fallacy Soulseeker. Would you care to try again?

SoulSeeker wrote:

Resticon wrote: Since I attribute the "Force" as the "Living Force of Creation" then no matter what creation myth you believe, it is the same as the "Force". The "Force" could be the Big Bang, God, Allah, the Holy Spirit, or even the Force itself.

Argument of assosciation which contradicts others' definitions of the Force, implying there isn't even a set definition to begin with, which does further to destroy your premise.

I have not said that my belief is what everyone believes. My belief comes from my interpretation of the phrase, "Jedi seek the Living Force Of Creation for guidance" which is located in the 3rd paragraph of the TotJO Temple Doctrine.

Wow, the mental gymnastics you are going through in order to prove your point is incredible.

SoulSeeker wrote:

Fallacy of misrepresentation. I never said because it "matches up", I said you *are* a witness, and the testimony of other witnesses agrees with you. In other words, you observe something and another says "this is true". It's no surprise you want to disprove that honesty exists, though- that's the only way you could justify your own dishonest beliefs.

It's not 'Fallacy of misrepresentation'. I think you need to look up the proper use of the term. I understand fallacious arguments all too well. Yours are full of them.

If all three witnesses testimonies don't 'match up' with yours, they are not being honest. It's that simple. The point is, just because someone says that you are telling the truth, it doesn't prove your honesty. They could all be lying. Very poor point SoulSeeker.

Also, I wasn't disproving that honesty exists, merely that your argument didn't prove that it did. That's a fallacy of misrepresentation.

Plus, you never answered my question. Have you ever been in love? If so, prove that love exists!

Resticon wrote: Taking a half a sentence from a paragraph and using it out of context is a prime example of a strawman fallacy Soulseeker. Would you care to try again?
Whenever an opponent commits a strawman I explain logically how and why it is a strawman. Would you care to show the same courtesy? How are they "out of context"?

Resticon wrote: I have not said that my belief is what everyone believes.

Exactly. Because there's no set definition. Because if there were a more set definition there would be more of a need to prove it. And it doesn't exist.

You have very conveniently overlooked:

SoulSeeker wrote:

Sheuthem wrote: Plus, you have just used an analogy to prove that honesty exits, while you mocked my use of an analogy to show, not that the Force exists, but how I understand that Force to works for me. The point of my Salt analogy was that in order for someone to understand what Salt tastes like, they must experience it for themselves.

You: "The Tooth Fairy exists."
Me: "Really? I've never seen any evidence for her. Have you?"
You: "Well it's like salt. If you haven't tasted it, I can't describe it to you."
Me: "Okay... so you mean you can't describe her?"
You: "Oh I didn't want to show that the Tooth Fairy exists, just my understanding of how she works."
And now me again: "Alright. But where's the evidence?"

All in all, your responses were

Sheuthem wrote: a very poor argument. Try again.

Don't think I'm just going to let you keep evading valid points.

Sheuthem wrote: It's not 'Fallacy of misrepresentation'.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
Educate yourself.

Sheuthem wrote: I think you need to look up the proper use of the term. I understand fallacious arguments all too well. Yours are full of them.

Where?

Sheuthem wrote: If all three witnesses testimonies don't 'match up' with yours, they are not being honest.

Which implies that if all three testimonies do, then they are.

Sheuthem wrote: It's that simple.

Sheuthem wrote: The point is, just because someone says that you are telling the truth, it doesn't prove your honesty. They could all be lying.

And, once again, you purposefully miss the point. You have just said "it doesn't prove your honesty", implying that you yourself believe honesty exists, when you have been trying to *disprove* it this entire time. So you really contradicted yourself there.

You: "Honesty doesn't exist"
Me: "Yes it does. If you witness something and someone agrees that what you've witnessed is true, there's an example of honesty"
You: "But... but... what if all of them are lying!? For all we know they ALL could be lying!"
Me: *can't help smiling as my opponents arguments fall to shreds*

I have to say, you make a

Sheuthem wrote: Very poor point

,
And should probably:

Sheuthem wrote: Try again.

Because

Sheuthem wrote: It's that simple.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Sheuthem wrote: Also, I wasn't disproving that honesty exists, merely that your argument didn't prove that it did. That's a fallacy of misrepresentation.

So you 1. Believe in the Force, 2. Can't prove it even exists, but to back up why you believe in this supposed "force" you state 1. Honesty cannot be proven to exist, 2. Love cannot be proven to exist, and when "honesty" is proved say 1. Well I didn't mean I don't believe in honesty... just that you can't prove. And... err... Besides! What about love, then? Prove THAT! So there, I got you! I win!

Sheuthem wrote: Plus, you never answered my question. Have you ever been in love? If so, prove that love exists!

How about we get back on topic, and you actually prove the Force exists?

Unbelievable.

All of your points make very little sense.

The link you provided is about Straw Man Fallacies, not the Fallacy of Misrepresentation. So I have educated myself on your inability to research properly. Well done!

I also teach Philosophy, so I know what logical fallacies are, that's how I know your arguments are full of them.

The fact that you wont answer a question that you know will discredit your argument speaks volumes.

I'm done trying to have a rational discussion with you. I am out!

Before I go.

SoulSeeker wrote:

Sheuthem wrote:
The point is, just because someone says that you are telling the truth, it doesn't prove your honesty. They could all be lying.

And, once again, you purposefully miss the point. You have just said "it doesn't prove your honesty", implying that you yourself believe honesty exists, when you have been trying to *disprove* it this entire time. So you really contradicted yourself there.

You: "Honesty doesn't exist"
Me: "Yes it does. If you witness something and someone agrees that what you've witnessed is true, there's an example of honesty"
You: "But... but... what if all of them are lying!? For all we know they ALL could be lying!"
Me: *can't help smiling as my opponents arguments fall to shreds*

Please provide evidence of where I have stated that I believe honesty doesn't exist.

SoulSeeker wrote:

You: "The Tooth Fairy exists."
Me: "Really? I've never seen any evidence for her. Have you?"
You: "Well it's like salt. If you haven't tasted it, I can't describe it to you."
Me: "Okay... so you mean you can't describe her?"
You: "Oh I didn't want to show that the Tooth Fairy exists, just my understanding of how she works."
And now me again: "Alright. But where's the evidence?"

Please provide evidence of where I have said that I believe the Tooth Fairy exists.

If you can do both of these things, I will continue the conversation.