Abolish Marriage

Proteus wrote:
Tomato Tomoto

hmmm... It seems I said both of those the same... should I not have?

Tomato Tomoto, Patato Pototo.

'Larry, they're all spelled the same on the CARDS!' Tom drawled in his best Christopher Walken imitation. And, when Jack failed to respond, Tom looked to the other characters for applause.

'Something on your mind, Miss Author?' Asked Elysia, whom had remained mostly impassive throughout other conversations on highly charged topics about reproduction, women's rights, or anything even remotely connected to gender and equality. Jack held up two fingers.

"Two things: One, more a response to something Master Ren said...

Have you ever considered that it is in women's nature to "stick around" but not in men's? By nature i mean the chemical, scientifically observed kind. (males want to stay with females for around 2 minutes after sex, for females it can last a week) (Males are also hardwired to look for as many healthy females as quickly as possible, females are not)

...In that the studies conducted on those subjects were... not the best examples of scientific studies on neurological differences between the genders. Not that they're flat out, one-hundred percent wrong... just that they can't be used as conclusive evidence. Citing the studies done as proof positive that there are hardwired differences between men and women would be like saying 'Well, I read this one website on the internet about it'. They're more psuedo-science than anything..." Jack looked over her shoulder for Kakeru grinning and obviously begging to make a pop-culture joke, "...Oh, fine, say it."

'Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable; you are a poor scientist.' He recited, perfectly mimicking the body language and voice inflections from 'Ghostbusters'.

"And, now, about marriage... sithspit, I don't even KNOW anymore. I grew up with the whole ideal that I'd one day meet a Prince Charming on a white horse and we'd get married and that would be that. Now? Pfft. I can barely WRITE a romance unless the two involved are both men."

'You did okay with us.' Kendalina pointed out as she and Triclops shamelessly went through Jack's stash of Boy's Love comics.

"But you guys never get married."

'Because the Galaxy was on the brink of destruction and we were both running for our lives, barely scraping to get by, and had no legal birth certificates. We did not even legally EXIST. How was it even possible? What judge would say 'Well, our planet is being turned into a dictatorship and everything as we know it is disappearing... but, sure, we can hold a marriage ceremony for you two'?' Triclops even sounded a little sarcastic, of all things.

'And there woulda been no point. In terms of what use marriage is -- it's just to keep up appearances, nowadays. Let's face it, that's the only reason Master Skywalker and that b*tch senator from Naboo got married -- because if they hadn't, it woulda been scandalous and the little brats they had for episodes four through six woulda been bastard children. You know it, I know it, we all know it.' Kendalina put in.

"Could I get some DIFFERENT opinions? And an aspirin?" Jack called, turning to the other characters. Silus' tail wiggled in mid-air.

'Well, I'm not sure how it works for Humans, but I have a fiance.' He put in, before Con reminded him that his fiance was, as a matter of fact, a half-woman, half-snake lady, and how would that work, anyway? '...Fate... takes care of those things. I don't know how I can tell, but I just know.'

'And how does the marriage ceremony work? Do all the trees get together and throw rice? Or pine needles, or something?' Con pushed, getting even more sarcastic. Silus' whiskers twitched.

'...Ceremony? Marriage for us is just... living. We're mates. We have a litter, and then we stay together for the rest of our days.'

"Okay... let's tie that with the whole 'different definitions of what makes a marriage' idea. Is marriage just sticking together for all of your life? Doesn't sound too bad, and when it comes to divorce... hell, if you're not together anymore, clearly that means it wasn't a marriage in the first place..."

'But, if we use that, then we have all sorts of problems about when it's just friendships or things like roommates...' Elysia pointed out, 'What makes it a marriage if it's not the legal system or process and we drop the discriminations of 'One man, one woman' and so on?'

'I would say 'love'... except there's also been the argument made that marriage is not a love affair, but rather an ordeal.' Haid put in, quoting Joseph Campbell almost perfectly, '...But in that case, does that make it something to be avoided, or might a Jedi be the one to say it should be sought, because ordeals are what shape us and help our character along?'

'I say all marriage be temporarily abolished, just to give the f***ers a taste of their own medicine.' Akitaro piped up in an unusually nasty snap. James casually leaned over and pulled a news article on Rick Santorum out of Akitaro's hands, 'No, I'm not BITTER, why do you ask?'

Jack groaned, putting her head in her hands.

'There's also a socio-economic problem with marriages: the weddings.' Sissy pointed out, 'We've got such horribly over-the-top standards for wedding ceremonies, like expensive engagement rings for the ladies, big dresses, huge receptions, everything that goes into them. We've got TV shows showcasing some of the perils like 'Bridezillas' or 'The Bachelor' or something, and all of it portraying negative stereotypes on gender roles, as well as impossible expectations for spending and materialism. And, more than ever, that's what comes to define if you've gotten married or not -- if you had a big wedding.'

"Alright... So, there are some of us who think that there would be good reason to get rid of the legal marriage, some who think it exists for a reason, some who think there's nothing to even debate because it's just a moot point..." Jack finally concluded.

'And what does our esteemed author think?' Tom asked, hanging upside-down by his tail. Guess who wanted some attention?

"...I'd say I'm with Haid on this one." That was a bit of a shock, "I do normally go for the borderline outlandishly liberal, but... she's right -- ordeals shape who we are. And, if you're thinking about things like defining marriage by just being together for your entire lives, I'll straight up use the Yoda quote: Always in motion is the future. It can't be defined by what you THINK it will be -- it's gotta BE for it to happen."

'Which explains why YOU'RE determined to be single forever because...?' Kendalina asked.

"Because it's an ordeal that involves another person. And I can't make that decision for another person... and, knowing me, my future would never go smoothly enough for anyone to be able to stand it." Again, she got a look, "Hey, don't deny it -- one day, I'll be swearing off all possessions and saying that transcending the mortal sphere is the most important thing, then the next will have me talking about how our physical bodies are essential to have spiritual lives. There are days when I want to divorce me. It would be a moral wrong to put someone else through that."

Jack stopped speaking, then briefly wondered to herself if she was really starting to become incoherent when joining on other discussions.

So you're basically saying that marriage (or any civil union) is just a way to create consequences for men who cheat? What about love? Morality? Self-control? I know non-married couples who have ever cheated, and tons of people who cheat within marriage.

Men physically are not meant to stay with one partner. love morality and self control are psychological. "cheating" is a social thing. Naturally guys try to pass on as many of their genes, the strongest being more successful than the weaker. It has also been suggested that males with the most "male" physical features were still more successful than those with the better social features (good dad doesnt cheat husband for life, etc)

And, sapadu, you may want to read different websites/women's magazines. It has been proven the male visual cortex is a lot more active than a female's at an equal level of sexual arousal, and that the "after sex" chemistry is quite different. Any limitations in this research is down to the tools. not being allowed to move, getting a (very loud) scan in a machine with no space looking at erotic images is not the ideal environment. You might also want to ask red Lila about the differences between male and female mental "wiring", apparently it's an even bigger deal than I had previously thought.


Personal observation: I think men might be attracted by marriage (or similar relationships) because it offers a safe mate without the need to keep in shape. Basically, It's a lot easier. prohibition of polygyny also helps inferior males quite a lot by giving them a chance for a mate that would otherwise have been snatched by another.

I'll pop in since I was mentioned

I can't refute or agree with the evolutionary psychologist idea of promiscuity being natural. Those same people saying men are also say women are thought actual statistical surveying of larger populations don't bear this out quite like they say. That being said, yes male and female brains do have pronounced differences but they are largely in the white matter, the connective tissue of the brain. Women have more white matter than men, specifically the additional white matter is that which bridges the right and left hemisphere's of the brain. This results in male thought patterns tending toward structured or free form but rarely both simultaneously. None of this has to do with promiscuity though.

In summation, neurological differences imply a likelihood for a man to decide on a course after ruminating and then re-evaluate rarely or at least less often. On the other end, women are more likely to question their thought processes almost constantly. Further, these are all just tendencies, and not set in stone for any given individual.

It's in the definition...

All three of Star Forge's posts of controversy have been about definition..

1. No more kids... Well, accidental children, are ok... But not "planned" ones...
Not the right thread, again... I'm just showing a pattern... And i never did post again on that thread, I need to get to that...

2. Jedi, not a Jedist
Ok, this is cool, whatever... Still not this thread

3. Do away with marriage
ah, right thread...

Not the act of joining two souls "in love", Not the spending life together forever...

Just that word "marriage", which to Star Forge, makes it a sexist institution...

A marriage is a joining...

A merger, a combining...

The problem (or opportunity for discussion, depending on definition... :woohoo:) we (or maybe just some of us) have in most conversation (or discussions, maybe disagreements), is agreement (disagreement?) of definition (or lack of)...

In any marriage/merger/combining, seldom is it a 50/50 combination... Usually, it is a little more one, than the other...

One party might be strong, where the other is weak...

My wife and I are not polar opposites by any means...

She compliments me where I am weak, and I hope (and hope she sees) that I'm trying to assist her where she is weak...

Not necessarily help get over it (the weakness), but help getting up when my weakness knocks me down....

+++++++++
Divorce:
I've been married to two other women before her...

They didn't want to work with me.. Instead, they found it easier to keep looking for other men, than to work together....

I couldn't forget the indiscretion with which they showed...

How would I not wonder, for the rest of our lives together, about their faithfulness?

I forgave... But, it took a while...

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I too, am a member of the clergy here....

It's semantics...

Just as we are all here as Jedi, not one of us agree on an exact idea of what that is.. lol...

I have many conversations, read many posts, still reading and thinking about philosophy of great minds...

Jediism works for those of us who embrace it...

Christianity for Christians...

Islam for Muslims...

Whatever floats your boat, right?

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And concerning Star Forge, and his controversial topics and statements....

I'm somewhat amused to see him take the high road generally...

He doesn't get upset, he just lights the fire, it feeds itself....

I used to wonder why Senior members seldom comment....

Now that I'm one, I laugh at myself....

To really answer any thread, by anyone, intelligently, you must really give it a lot of thought, consider the possibilities....

By the time I have done this, there are 5 or 6 further posts I must consider... lol...

.......
And besides, how important is it, really?

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I enjoy verbal sparring....

Like James Bond and the evil villain... (Not sure who is who, guess that depends on your point of view...)

Who can remain the coolest, under pressure? Not lose their cool... And still make a point for their discussion...

When I allow someone to make me mad, such as my ex-wife, they have control, right?

If I'm going to die by "sharks with lasers", I'm going out like a Boss...

None of this has to do with promiscuity though.

Of course it does. every thought has to do with the brain

I thought you knew more about that visual cortex business, but I must have discussed this with someone else. Sorry for dragging your name out It relates to the commonly held belief that men get more easily aroused as a result of visual stimuli when in fact the visual cortex processes a lot more "things" for men but without any additional impact on arousal. i wonder if it's linked to that men have more grey matter, women have more white matter business.

Do they have neurology at the open university?

Gray matter isn't significantly different in men and women. You'll find more variance in the gray matter of two brothers or sisters than between men and women as a group.

Looking back the original post it would appear the the OP suggests abolishing marriage due his view that it promotes a gender based hierarchical situation. I wouldn't mind if they fleshed that out with some examples but their beliefs are their own and I won't debate it.

I personally feel that a better argument for nixing marriage would come from data as failure rates are over 40%. Being that I believe in marriage I won't go there.

I would like to point out that Biblical theology introduces marriage very early on in Genesis and references it again over 500 times through out the Bible. It is natural and logical that marriage is associated with an identified as a religious institution.

In that same context woman was made from man; created to serve as man's helper. Man is then instructed to love his wife as Christ loves the church.

My own view of marriage is a joining. From two, one. In this union the two together are greater than the sum of their individual parts. It's a partnership where (as Jestor suggested) one aids the other in support of the whole. The marriage relationship epitomizes Yin and Yang.

If I may be so bold, I would say that failure rates as well as societal views of marriage such as the OP's are rooted in a lack of understanding of marriage by those who enter into it. Bottom line people are too quick to marry and on top of that have little to no clue how to nurture the relationship to sustain it.

When people marry do they really know who they are marrying? Do they even know themselves and what they want in their partner? From what I've seen, not really. By the time they get to know each other they may realize that they not only do not love each other but, they don't even like each other. They either divorce or stay together for the wrong reasons, live unhappily and give web forums fodder for debating the usefulness of marriage.

Rather than abolish marriage would it be more prudent to establish a system of controls prior to marriage? Mandated pre-marriage counseling for example?

[Gets on soap box] I doubt it would ever fly though. The same people that are posturing for the abolishment of marriage would also stand in opposition of mandatory front end education with claims that it infringes on their inalienable human rights. It is this same selfishness that corrupts society and its institutions. We are so set on doing our thing, our way, that we pollute a thing until it is a detestable mass that is barely a shadow of the original.

Now we cry out that this thing, this kluge, is reprehensible. It offends my right to breathe and must be stopped! Who are we crying out to? Probably to those who we would not allow to step on our rights up front, yes? [/soapbox]

Nobody plans to fail they just fail to plan. Trite and cliche, I know but that simple phrase speaks volumes about why life choices like marriage end in chaos and ruin.

Red Lila wrote: Gray matter isn't significantly different in men and women. You'll find more variance in the gray matter of two brothers or sisters than between men and women as a group.

You seem partially right. The findings in this area seem random. these articles completely bust your white matter claims though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12794739
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12488829

Apparently men have bigger brains, but the proportion of grey matter is equal to that of women, and they have more white matter. (possibly proportional as well?)

I think the topic of brain composition and natural tendencies toward promiscuity is a little irrelevant. It is one's decision to cheat.

It also seems that a few people mistakenly believe that I am against the union of two people who are in love. I said quite the contrary. However, I don't want that equal union being called what it is not.

Here's what I think would be a good policy toward "marriage," and perhaps it is simply because I am a libertarian but anyways...

Have government civil unions that are completely devoid of any religious aspect. If they want to have a ceremony at their religious gathering place that makes their union valid in their faith, go ahead, but such a ceremony of the absence thereof would have no legal value. That means that if a gay Episcopalian couple wanted to sancfity their legal union in a church, they could. If a Baptist couple wanted to go to a church and have a wedding so that the pastor can remind the woman that her place is to make dinner and **** ** ** *** ***, they could. But, in any case, the legal aspect of it would be free of any religious or cultural significance.