Something + Nothing = Everything

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14 Nov 2019 12:16 #345523 by Lumella
In a discussion about the Force a good point was made that if the Everything did not incluce the Nothing it was not Everything ,and although i incline to agree with that it still nags me because i see the Force as something and the Nothing as something seperate from Something but together the Something + Nothing = Everything. So what i am trying to say is that i see the Force as Something but not Everything and that i also feel ( yesh i know tricky ) that the Force just is ...that for me means that i have to study what it is but that i cannot Use it.
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14 Nov 2019 16:48 #345527 by Fyxe
oh thank you!



This is why I dont think the force is everyhting. because nothing is not the opposite of everything. we think this way all the time by putting an opposite to everything. but nothing is not a "thing" because it is actually no-thing! lol... the opposite of everything is actually not-everything. nothing is not a thing, it is a state of non-being. its like dark, it is not the opposite of light actually. the opposite of light is non-light but not dark. dark is like always just waiting for the absence of anything that makes light. dark is the state of non-light. not actually a thing.

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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14 Nov 2019 16:51 #345528 by Omhu Cuspor
Call me quirky, but I love conundrums like this. :-)

My perspective - probably just one among many - is that the conversation starts to sound convoluted because it is an attempt to contain what perhaps can only be fully perceived by employing an intuitive sense into language that is bounded by the rules of logic. But, logic being the dominant tool for thriving in the 3D world, we have to give it a try.

Maybe it helps to start with a couple of definitions. I think it's helpful to distinguish the Force from what we may call the Source. The Force, per the Lucasfilm movies and what seems to be a commonly-held perspective here, is "An energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." I would define the Source as the origin, the creative impulse, that brings all manifest reality into existence.

From that perspective, the Force is distinguishable from Nothing. It is a Something, an existent entity that by one means or another can be perceived - whether through bodily sensations, intuition, some yet-to-be-invented measurement device, or (possibly) some kinds of paranormal phenomenon. The Source, however, is all inclusive. It is a Something, a Nothing, and an Everything. That is the part that is beyond logic, as logic would say any defined entity can only be one of those things.

Knowledge of the Source is commonly the aim of mystics of all religious traditions. That it cannot be defined in terms suited for Aristotelian logic is why we call mystics, "mystics". They (or we?) are engaged in the pursuit of understanding of the grandest Mystery of all ... pure nothingness, pure somethingness, and the pure synthesis of them both.

We can make use of the Force. We cannot use the Source; it just is.
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14 Nov 2019 17:10 #345529 by Fyxe
how can something be also nothing though? by the definition of nothing it cant be that way. also how can logic come from something not logical? its like how can evil come from something that is all good?

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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14 Nov 2019 17:48 #345530 by Kelrax Lorcken

Fyxe wrote: how can something be also nothing though? by the definition of nothing it cant be that way. also how can logic come from something not logical? its like how can evil come from something that is all good?


Those are good questions, Fyxe.

Here's the thing about logic: it's not uniform in it's applications, so, like philosophy and related matters, requires a fair bit of thought and consideration. Thus, it's not so simple and straight forward as one might assume.
It's subjective, especially for being limited by what the applicant actually knows, and is not immune to bias, either.
And, my favorite: it's highly situational. Adding more lanes, counter to "common sense" logic, doesn't really alleviate traffic problems, even in the short term.

And, sometimes, logic can't be reasonably or realistically applied, such as the original question.

We already have something that falls into this category, and we call it "Time". Time isn't something that actually exists; it "exists" in relation to observations of life and the natural world, we can conjure up systems to quantify it, as a means to understand the flowing, constant motion of the world and universe around us, but these concepts aren't born of observations of anything unto itself. It can be quantified, but not measured; time simultaneously exists, yet does not exist, and the former because we insist that it is so, regardless of the latter.

Does that make sense?

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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14 Nov 2019 18:25 #345532 by Omhu Cuspor

Fyxe wrote: ... can logic come from something not logical? its like how can evil come from something that is all good?


I like this question myself. My answer is speculative and subjective, but this is my take ...

Perhaps the universe, or multiverse, or whatever we may term the most inclusive collection of all that exists, is not inherently logical. Logic works well for us in managing our human affairs and perceiving how the world of matter, space, and time works, but it's quite possible our five dominant senses are filtering out quite a bit of what exists. Just like the rules of classical physics break down at the subatomic level, perhaps the rules of logic that we know are not universally applicable.

I had a terrific geometry teacher in high school. Much of geometry is founded on the work of the Greek mathematician Euclid, who taught us that parallel lines do not intersect, and that the sum of the angles in any triangle is 180 degrees, and so on. But after studying this subject for most of a year, my teacher shocked us by offhandedly saying one day "The geometry of the universe is not Euclidean. There are mathematical models where parallel lines intersect, and the other principles you know do not apply." That always stuck with me in a more fundamental way: The universe is more varied than we think. Human perception may not be the ultimate resource for determining the nature of reality.

I've never done LSD, but suspect if someone has this will all make more sense to them. :-D
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14 Nov 2019 18:52 #345539 by Fyxe
Yes exactly Ohmu! I definately think our senses are filtered and we cant see everything around us! I think that is the goal of learning to use the force, to find those filters and to learn how to view around them or bend them or whatever so we can perceive the parts of our reality that we cant really see, the higher parts of existence like where the force is! if we can uncover those parts we can use them and do incredible things that would normally be impossible.

I think the idea of pararallel lines is really fascinating. I remember a lesson in school about showing the earth was round. something about a triangle and returning to where you left from. I wonder if thats sort of the same thing you talk about?

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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14 Nov 2019 18:54 #345541 by Lumella
Thank you so much for your wonderful replies , dare i say that because the Force cannot be Nothing and therefore cannot be Everything? That is when we hold on to the idea that the Force is Something of course :lol:

Another thing that is mentioned that is Logic and how flawed it is , in logic we have rules for something to be logical but sometimes that what is logical is not true
For instance

All Jedi fight with lightsabers
Darth Maul fights with a lightsaber
Therefore Darth Maul is a Jedi

All of the premises are true ( yeah yeah in the fiction i know )and so is the conclusion, but it’s not a valid argument.

I think a lot of things that we encounter in life goes over our head and we should do our best to understand it , approach what we can with reason and logic and also leave some space for wonder and surprise. We only understand this little part our own universe. Most ideas and opinions are subjective , even if we pride ourselves in being disconnected from the Ego.
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14 Nov 2019 18:58 #345543 by Carlos.Martinez3
*he was trained in the Jedi arts ...

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14 Nov 2019 19:01 #345544 by Lumella

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: *he was trained in the Jedi arts ...


Ok another one for smarty pants ,..:lol:

All psychological scientists conduct empirical research.
William James conducts empirical research.
Therefore, William James is a psychological scientist.
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