Faith vs science

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5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #334735 by
Replied by on topic Faith vs science
@Kyrin

My personal journal is not up for public debate. That is why I put it there rather than here.

Mods, I'd like all posts relating to my private journal removed.

Thank you, Adder.
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5 years 1 month ago #334736 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Faith vs science

Arisaig wrote: @Kyrin

My personal journal is not up for public debate. That is why I put it there rather than here.

Mods, I'd like all posts relating to my private journal removed.


Seem's fair enough, especially considering you said as much prior . The incident will be looked into and a course of action about how to handle it made in the near future. If there is anything in particular remaining please let the Mods or Security Officers know, failing that any Councillor.. thanks.

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5 years 1 month ago #334740 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Faith vs science
@Ari
While I understand the distress, just to keep things fair, nothing forced you to publicly announce that this is going to flow (and to that extent continue) in your journal. If you do so, can you really fault anyone for going there to check it out and come back and respond? Nobody would think that it is up for debate if you didn't point at it as if it was supposed to have relevance to the discussion held here...



@Loudzoo
I'd be delighted to argue against Einstein on this, heck, I'd be happy to chat with the man on just about any topic, if his character is fairly represented in his writing and testimonies about him. Unfortunately, he has been dead for longer than my parents have been alive, and so I find it profoundly unlikely to ever find the opportunity. Until that happens I'm afraid all we can do is throw quotes and mined quotes around and while that may get us closer to what his position might have been nowadays were he still around to hold one, I don't think it would do much to settle any dispute about the actual subject at hand.
I think that the "problem" of non-linear or chaotic systems is way over-exaggerated. Asymptotic solutions are being worked on pretty much all over the place, simulations are being run to generate predictions with success that seems unremarkable until you realize that this is how airplane wings are being designed and they do fly pretty bloody well, all things considered. In the mean time statistical models (thermodynamics, any of quantum theory, just to name two I have any kind of idea of) are some of the most successful ones we have ever developed. Science doesn't have all the answers, it arguably doesn't have any of the answers, because it's not about answers, it's about utility. We might have started out trying to have an a priori justifier to employ scientific methodology, but we have since come so far at this point that we can now justify the entire enterprise by referring to the technological achievements it enabled and have plenty more than enough.
I'll agree that science has "failed to provide an existentially satisfying paradigm" just because I frankly don't know what that means or what things would be like if it had, but I do know that I have more clear ways to express what the goals it is we aim for by employing science and we have been reaching those pretty well so far. I don't know what the goals of faith are. I assume it would indeed be something akin to "finding answers", because that's what it seems it is doing a lot of, just asserting answers on no reason and defend them against all reason. I'll let the faithful be the judge on what it means to do that successfully and I'll leave the humanistic philosophers be the judge of whether that is even a desirable thing at all. For the scientific enterprise faith is either in the way or not in the way, never an aid.
As a human I'd say that I'd be much better off without faith, and I'd be better off still if those I have to share a planet and its future with had less of it as well. This is not to say that I don't have any, but the area I have it in along with a demonstration that I do indeed has yet to be named, and a case for why any of us need it has yet to be made also.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #334741 by
Replied by on topic Faith vs science

Gisteron wrote: @Ari
While I understand the distress, just to keep things fair, nothing forced you to publicly announce that this is going to flow (and to that extent continue) in your journal. If you do so, can you really fault anyone for going there to check it out and come back and respond? Nobody would think that it is up for debate if you didn't point at it as if it was supposed to have relevance to the discussion held here...


I agree. Nothing forced me to announce anything. But that doesn't mean one's personal journal can or is to be discussed in a public setting. You wanna talk to me about something in my journal? That's what the PM function is for, not the Open Discussion forums... but, alas, off topic...
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5 years 1 month ago #334750 by
Replied by on topic Faith vs science

Arisaig wrote: I agree. Nothing forced me to announce anything. But that doesn't mean one's personal journal can or is to be discussed in a public setting. You wanna talk to me about something in my journal? That's what the PM function is for, not the Open Discussion forums... but, alas, off topic...


You have me blocked in PM. You did announce that you were taking it to the journal. I see no rule that journal posts cant be discussed on the open board. After all the journal posts are public as well. I do know not to post in the journal. In any event I was trying to help you understand something better. It had the best intentions so I'm not sure why it has so greatly upset you. However if it has I'm sorry.



On to the subject matter....

Einstein also said.
In a letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3 1954 , he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

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5 years 1 month ago #334751 by
Replied by on topic Faith vs science

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: I agree. Nothing forced me to announce anything. But that doesn't mean one's personal journal can or is to be discussed in a public setting. You wanna talk to me about something in my journal? That's what the PM function is for, not the Open Discussion forums... but, alas, off topic...


You have me blocked in PM. You did announce that you were taking it to the journal. I see no rule that journal posts cant be discussed on the open board. After all the journal posts are public as well. I do know not to post in the journal. In any event I was trying to help you understand something better. It had the best intentions so I'm not sure why it has so greatly upset you. However if it has I'm sorry.


Thank you for your apology. You are not blocked in my PM's, as of last Sunday.

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5 years 1 month ago #334753 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic Faith vs science
@ Gisteron - I hear you. My modest expertise has been directed into Climatology for over 20 years and the predictive skill of computer models has not improved noticeably in that time, despite massive leaps in computational power. That 'science' has major problems and I am definitely projecting those onto other academic fields! Aerodynamics are better understood perhaps but you only need to look at what happened to Ferrari in F1 last year to see that it remains as much a dark art, as a hard science. There is a massive reproduce-ability problem in pharmaceutical research, psychology etc. The scientific method hasn't obviously led to massive improvements in our understanding of economics, financial markets, politics or the hard problem of consciousness.

I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture here - science has delivered amazing improvements in many ways. It can't answer non-scientific questions though and finding answers to some of those questions is very important. What methods can we employ to reliably begin to answer these questions? Blind faith clearly isn't the right answer and would be a major retrograde step. Experiment and evidence must play a role for sure and that's where faith and science can begin to work with each other. If we study Buddhism - it asks us to experiment with different modes of thinking and examine the evidence of the changes they bring. It relies on some faith and it employs a remarkably scientific approach - which 'works' for many people. Such quasi-epidemiological studies could be the way forwards?

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5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #334754 by
Replied by on topic Faith vs science

Loudzoo wrote: The scientific method hasn't obviously led to massive improvements in our understanding of economics, financial markets, politics or the hard problem of consciousness.

I'm not trying to paint a bleak picture here - science has delivered amazing improvements in many ways. It can't answer non-scientific questions though and finding answers to some of those questions is very important.



Actually the scientific method is quite helpful in these areas. The scientific method involves identifying a problem, gathering data, forming a hypothesis, testing the hypothesis, and analyzing the results. ... Cause and effect relationships are used to establish theories and principles in economics and financial markets in this way and it is used everyday to explore consciousness. So it can be used to answer "non-scientific questions". However I'm curious as to why you feel finding the answers to some of those questions is very important? Does it imply there is an answer to every question and we need an answer to it?
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5 years 1 month ago #334756 by
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Ask the average person, "how do you know the earth is round?" and you'll see where faith and science exist together..

However, Biblical faith isnt blind. It's based on experience. "Evidence of things unseen" I have faith BECAUSE of my experience though YOU personally haven't seen it.. "Substance of things hoped for" Is essentially where all theories start. It comes through education of some sort or another.. whether spiritual or material..

Faith and Science, and the Investigations they inspire, are more alike than different..

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5 years 1 month ago #334757 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Faith vs science
Does it imply there is an answer to every question and we need an answer to it?

Isn’t that one of the things science - fact based identification does ... remove the wonder ?

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