What is the Force

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5 years 1 month ago #334465 by
Replied by on topic What is the Force
Strictly speaking, no one can choose their beliefs. This is because we lack direct control over our beliefs. Say I told you I will pay you $1,000 if you sincerely believed that an invisible unicorn was in my garage, you could not do it. You could tell me you believe me and you could even desperately want to believe me because you are motivated by the reward of money. But in reality you can’t actually force yourself to truly believe it. This is because there is no evidence for my claim, and a mountain of evidence against it. And this evidence is based on a lifetime of experience.

But that is not to say we can’t also be convinced of something (believe it) that may or may not be true. When it comes to spiritual beliefs we are bombarded by a multitude of sources trying to convince us one way or the other of various things. Parents, culture, society and environmental factors may apply various pressures in this regard. And we may even engage in self deception to convince ourselves we believe something. These pressures can create authentic belief in the form of indirect control. But if those pressures are based on bias or faith or deception they are flawed. And the only way to discern if a belief is valid or not is by substantiating it with reproducible data.

So what becomes paramountly important in the process to produce authentic belief that is reliable is to go through a process of careful evaluation of available fact and evidence that exists outside the realm of opinion. In this way, we maintain an accurate and logically consistent indirect control over our beliefs. As a rational being, I follow the evidence. My choice, then, is to accept that evidence whether it is an outcome I desire or not. This is a practice in truthful honesty.
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5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #334466 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is the Force
It's all belief IMO, and if it happens to be accurate and reproducible we just call it truth instead, until proven otherwise. But the extent of association to truth into our worldview and self identity really need not be so great as to push other belief out of the realm of our experiential apparatus, as that sort of misses out on the rich tapestry of experiences possible by blurring the boundary of the real and unreal, such that perhaps the spiritual path is about that process being done for benefit in both the objective interface space and subjective experience of mind.

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5 years 1 month ago #334469 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic What is the Force
Kira said:

“My experience, and the experience of others, is that the trunk is very real, it's there to be studied and learned about. Your belief or disbelief doesn't affect it's existence, but you're likely to not access it or find evidence of it unless you give yourself the opportunity to try to experience it.

No one method fits all people. There are many ways to get to the same place.”

There really isn’t anything I can say to add to this. Thank you Kira :)

Kyrin - you asked what is between the tail and the trunk? There is nothing between these things. They do not exist as independent ‘things’. They are all ‘elephant’!

Up to a point it’s helpful to make distinctions but we have to integrate these with the reality of the whole. It’s not tail or trunk - the answer is tail AND trunk AND elephant!

As a self-proclaimed materialist you want evidence and proof. I understand that. To get evidence - what do you have to do? You have to go look for it, you have to experiment, you have to let the evidence speak to you, you have to form your conclusion after the experiments - not before.

Unless you are willing to move you will keep on experiencing ‘tail’, and ‘trunk’ will remain a myth to you - as will ‘elephant’. Can I ask you a question? What are you afraid of? What scares you about letting go of the tail and exploring the rest of the elephant?

The Librarian
Knight of TOTJO: Initiate Journal , Apprentice Journal , Knight Journal , Loudzoo's Scrapbook
TM: Proteus
Knighted Apprentices: Tellahane , Skryym
Apprentices: Squint , REBender
Master's Thesis: The Jedi Book of Life
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5 years 1 month ago #334470 by
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Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Strictly speaking, no one can choose their beliefs. This is because we lack direct control over our beliefs. Say I told you I will pay you $1,000 if you sincerely believed that an invisible unicorn was in my garage, you could not do it. You could tell me you believe me and you could even desperately want to believe me because you are motivated by the reward of money. But in reality you can’t actually force yourself to truly believe it. This is because there is no evidence for my claim, and a mountain of evidence against it. And this evidence is based on a lifetime of experience.

But that is not to say we can’t also be convinced of something (believe it) that may or may not be true. When it comes to spiritual beliefs we are bombarded by a multitude of sources trying to convince us one way or the other of various things. Parents, culture, society and environmental factors may apply various pressures in this regard. And we may even engage in self deception to convince ourselves we believe something. These pressures can create authentic belief in the form of indirect control. But if those pressures are based on bias or faith or deception they are flawed. And the only way to discern if a belief is valid or not is by substantiating it with reproducible data.

So what becomes paramountly important in the process to produce authentic belief that is reliable is to go through a process of careful evaluation of available fact and evidence that exists outside the realm of opinion. In this way, we maintain an accurate and logically consistent indirect control over our beliefs. As a rational being, I follow the evidence. My choice, then, is to accept that evidence whether it is an outcome I desire or not. This is a practice in truthful honesty.


I think we are basically in agreement, and are getting caught up in semantics. Your example of the unicorn in the garage isn't a really great metaphor here. Say you need to get a piano into a top floor apartment. You could look at the the size of the door and say to yourself, "look how much bigger the piano is than this doorway! It will never even get into the building!" If, instead of acquiescing to defeat, you say, "I will get this piano inside," you're much more likely to succeed because you will keep trying. Granted, it may literally be impossible to get that piano through the doorway, but you will find that out if you try all the possibilities. Maybe it needs to be taken apart? Maybe there's another entrance that it will fit through. What I'm getting at is if you're going to try meditation for the first time, and you start off believing that it will not work, it likely won't because you will have already limited yourself and acquiesced to defeat. Even if it doesn't work the first time, it may after 10, or 50 or 100 times. If you've already accepted that it isn't real and won't work, you'll likely give up before you've given it a chance to.

Sometimes believing you can, even before you know you can, is thing that enables you to achieve. It can help overcome self doubt. A lot of people say, "I will never be able to learn another language." Most of them are right, however, it more often than not has absolutely nothing to do with language itself, but with their belief that they can't.

"So what becomes paramountly important in the process to produce authentic belief that is reliable is to go through a process of careful evaluation of available fact and evidence that exists outside the realm of opinion. In this way, we maintain an accurate and logically consistent indirect control over our beliefs. As a rational being, I follow the evidence. My choice, then, is to accept that evidence whether it is an outcome I desire or not. This is a practice in truthful honesty."

This I fully agree with. I can't speak for anyone else but when I joined the Jedi community I understood the spiritual practices of Jediism to be entirely experiential, similar to Buddhism or other mystic traditions. To get at the goal of understanding what facts we can about the Force I have always advocated for an approach based as much in the scientific method as possible. The taking of detailed notes, having a control wherever possible, eliminating confirmation bias, comparing notes, trying to reproduce results with the same methods, and most importantly, to accept that sometimes novel ideas end up being not based in fact.
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5 years 1 month ago #334490 by
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Loudzoo wrote: As a self-proclaimed materialist you want evidence and proof. I understand that. To get evidence - what do you have to do? You have to go look for it, you have to experiment, you have to let the evidence speak to you, you have to form your conclusion after the experiments - not before.


Very much agree.

Apropos, I literally just started reading "Freedom from the Known" today. Where is one getting this evidence that the Force doesn't exist? Scientists? Spiritual leaders? All in all, some sort of figure of authority, right? ;p

Truth is something one finds on their own. So submitting oneself to the fallacy of appeal to authority when it comes to such matter limits only oneself. As you said, theorise, experiment, come to conclusions. But taking other people's word for it, or only listening to others, one way or another... well... limiting.
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5 years 1 month ago #334496 by
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Arisaig wrote: Where is one getting this evidence that the Force doesn't exist? Scientists? Spiritual leaders? All in all, some sort of figure of authority, right? ;p


Not sure what you are asking or driving at here? This discussion is not about disproving the force? Are you suggesting we are trying to do that? In fact that would be impossible. You cant disprove a negative.
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5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #334498 by
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Kira wrote: I think we are basically in agreement, and are getting caught up in semantics. Your example of the unicorn in the garage isn't a really great metaphor here.



Actually I feel it is an outstanding metaphor and is contrasted perfectly with your idea of the piano. These two ideas describe the difference in belief through faith and belief through evidence. The unicorn must be believed only through faith because it cant be proven to exist. This is a belief based on emotional responses. And we all know how volatile and often times irrational our emotions can be!

On the other hand the piano can be something we come to believe because we can prove to ourselves that it will go through the door. This will be based on fact and not emotion. And even if we cant find that proof others may. That is the difference between working with physical reality and the metaphysical. But its not belief that causes us to try to get the piano through the door. Its the idea we possess and the setting of the challenge to prove that idea true. Once again this is a hypothesis, not a belief. The belief or lack thereof comes in proving the hypothesis true or not true.
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5 years 1 month ago #334502 by
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Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Where is one getting this evidence that the Force doesn't exist? Scientists? Spiritual leaders? All in all, some sort of figure of authority, right? ;p


Not sure what you are asking or driving at here? This discussion is not about disproving the force? Are you suggesting we are trying to do that? In fact that would be impossible. You cant disprove a negative.


I was driving towards the second paragraph of my statement...
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5 years 1 month ago #334503 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic What is the Force
Hmmm. Belief through faith and belief through evidence . . . there is often very little difference between these. How much of ‘science’ do we believe through ‘faith’? Almost all of it! And most of the time that faith is well placed, even at a time when there is a truly massive reproducibility problem - especially in applied sciences. In any case, nobody is asking anyone to take anything on faith or to conjour beliefs out of the ether.

There is plenty of literature on religious / spiritual experience, plenty of proven techniques on how to have these experiences. If you like - the epidemiogical studies are done, and they are conclusive. Apply the techniques and see what happens . . . do the ‘science’. You can actually make it a remarkably scientific process!

The leap of faith is not a requirement. It’s only needed to keep investing time and effort in the ‘work’ before results become measurable! Once you have a mystical / religious / spiritual experience you will be left in no doubt as to how real it is.

One really important thing to clarify:

Kyrin said:
“That is the difference between working with physical reality and the metaphysical.”

The above sentence doesn’t make sense. The concept ‘physical reality’ is a metaphysical idea!! Metaphysical does not mean what I suspect you think it means! Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality e.g. physical reality.

Maybe you’re still considering your answer but I’d still be really interested to hear your answer to my earlier question: what is it that you are afraid of? Why won’t you let go of the tail for a bit? It’s very easy to find again should you wish to . . .

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5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #334504 by
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Loudzoo wrote: Kyrin - you asked what is between the tail and the trunk? There is nothing between these things. They do not exist as independent ‘things’. They are all ‘elephant’!

Up to a point it’s helpful to make distinctions but we have to integrate these with the reality of the whole. It’s not tail or trunk - the answer is tail AND trunk AND elephant!



Yes I think you are absolutely right. I think you (and proteus earlier) have touched on something extremely important here!

Proteus wrote: ... the elephant itself is not a "thing" (metaphors while helpful for ideas let's not forget are a bit limited for intangible ideas), but a happening. The phenomenon of existence itself is what is happening. It is that happening, to me, that constitutes the universal commonality of all life. But that doesn't say much of anything when trying to approach that from a typical ego-conditioned point of view. The larger and better understood picture of what that even means is only found in moments when the veil of one's individual identity is stripped (even if for only a moment). The sages of history are known for discovering that "layer" of existence in moments of "enlightenment" where their consciousness discovers direct connection to "being" (as in the verb). Because of this, I don't know if there could be any clear enough logical explanation of where the rest of this "elephant" is because human language is likely too limited in function to accomplish describing such a thing. And that is what I understand the existence of myth tries to at least get somewhat near with symbolic storytelling.



Loudzoo wrote: As a self-proclaimed materialist you want evidence and proof. I understand that. To get evidence - what do you have to do? You have to go look for it, you have to experiment, you have to let the evidence speak to you, you have to form your conclusion after the experiments - not before.

Unless you are willing to move you will keep on experiencing ‘tail’, and ‘trunk’ will remain a myth to you - as will ‘elephant’. Can I ask you a question? What are you afraid of? What scares you about letting go of the tail and exploring the rest of the elephant?



So we have this idea of connection in the form of elephant. This is not tail or trunk but a description of “the whole”. But I can have an idea, and an experience of, elephant that does not have a trunk and you can have an idea, and an experience of, elephant without a tail. You tell me you touch the trunk but I see no evidence of that so I conclude you have actually just touched the tail and misinterpreted it to be a trunk. This is where debate and evidence comes into play. What I was trying to do was get beneath that layer to try and discover what elephant actually is. What is its essence? It is not tail nor is it trunk, right? So what is it?

I think we have to realize, as proteus says, that there is no elephant at all. There is only the experience of elephant. Elephant is not a noun, it’s a verb. Elephant is not a thing, it’s an action. This is what “The Force” is to me. The force is not a thing, its not an energy field and it has no properties to explore because it does not exist as a thing. This makes it impossible to prove. But that’s ok. We can still agree it endures, but for me it endures as experience. The act of exploring it and the action of living it, the action of life itself is the force. We can disagree on the semantics of this in the form of tail or trunk but at its very core I believe the force is universal and exists as the act of happening. Participating in the act of happening does not require awareness of that happening either. That’s why “The Force” is all things and it is nothing. The paradox of duality that is actually a single thing.
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