Why so many people become disappointed with this community

Tellahane wrote:

What exactly am i dictating? I think if you got far enough along in the journey at the temple you would see better what I saw.

Let's move that to PM too kyrin because I don't think your understanding me and I'm probably not covering my explanations well enough, and its pulling away from the point of the thread.

No, lets leave it here in the open. I feel this is the exact point of this thread and I dont want to hide any of this conversation. I want all to participate!

You say that people here do not follow the doctrine or only follow part of it. I assume you mean members and Knights alike? And this is the root of the idea that caused you to leave knighthood yourself. That is a claim on your part that implies a dictation in which you assert there is a right way and a wrong way to follow the doctrine. I disagree that there is a "wrong" way to interpret or follow the doctrine according to the mandate of syncreticism this place embraces.

What I have found to be helpful is Consistant review.

This is an opinion so take it with a grain of salt. People do come in with expectations, things will not meet them but the majority will stick with it and slowly see that there is a lot of work to do to reach the goals laid out by the doctrine whether it be strictly followed or more freely followed. However, in the end it tends to be that a lot of that work is the hardest type to do and that is work on one's individual character. This is not only time consuming but takes a shift in most perspectives repeatedly as well as a decent level of self discipline to achieve. That said this is where people looking for validation drop off. Then there's also the "I'm tired" of watching petty squabbles that occasionally grant some philosophical value or enlightening views if one is willing to accept it, but for the majority it looks exactly like drama which can and does lead to a feeling of spiritual and character regression; leading to more people leaving than willing to wade through it for the gems that are worth it. Also, the reality of any organization or system will seldom look as good as the image it portrays.

Just a thought,
Kobos

It's quite possible to use TotJO as a form of escapism.

And it has nothing to do with TotJO itself. You can see this same things happen over and over, in all social media.

People sometimes feel bored, powerless or otherwise dissatisfied with their lives, and because it is uncomfortable (painful even) to look within, they will chase down the new novel distraction. We come on here, try to "change the world" through the politics and dynamics here, while neglecting their actual life.

That doesn't mean it happens to everyone, but it can happen. So it's a good idea to check yourself once in a while.

I happen to believe a lot of misunderstandings occur here because we have different definitions of "following the Doctrine". I can see in this thread that Tellahane and Kyrin both have differing ideas about what this means, but that doesn't make either path more or less valid. It simply makes it individual, and that is what we encourage here.

We see this in a lot of other religions too, but I'll use Christianity as an example simply because I believe it is one most people here are at least familiar with.

Christianity has a Doctrine as well, and in its simplest form, one can look to the Ten Commandments as handed down by God to Moses. Like our homepage says "a Jedi at Temple of the Jedi Order (TotJO) follows our Doctrine", Christianity tells us that one would follow the Ten Commandments. How a Christian personally interprets the Ten Commandments is similar to how a Jedi might interpret our Doctrine. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" may or may not include capital punishment, abortion, or "an eye for an eye" situations. That will have to be decided by the individual Christian and the circumstances they find themselves in. In the same way, the TOTJO Doctrine will be applied differently by each individual Jedi depending on circumstances.

In effect, there is no way to properly "advertise" TOTJO in a sentence on our homepage just as there is no single sentence that can properly sum up being Christian in a way that won't be incredibly vague. That is why we offer the IP and suggest further individual exploration of the Doctrine by each individual while still acknowledging their desire and commitment to being a Jedi. What is important is that one is interacting with the Doctrine at all and giving it real and fair consideration in one's own life. Christianity does the same thing. One can choose to follow a very strict interpretation of the Bible or to follow the teachings of Christ more loosely. What is important is that the study begins with the Bible as a framework for further exploration.

If someone has become disappointed with the community, it is likely for one of two reasons. Either this person entered with an initial unbending expectation that has not been met and never can be, or this person has not put enough time and effort into actually trying to live the Doctrine in their life to an extent that they can see any value in what good it might have to offer despite having some points that might not meet their initial impression of being a Jedi.

Senan wrote: If someone has become disappointed with the community, it is likely for one of two reasons. Either this person entered with an initial unbending expectation that has not been met and never can be, or this person has not put enough time and effort into actually trying to live the Doctrine in their life to an extent that they can see any value in what good it might have to offer despite having some points that might not meet their initial impression of being a Jedi.

False dichotomy.

There are some who do not get disappointed with this community at all, only with management in particular, and sometimes especifically with one or two of the people managing, for that matter.

It's easy to say "check yourself" when it comes to expectations regarding what you want this place (and Jediism in general) to be. It's not easy to hear it when the person telling you to check yourself turns around and belittles a member, or even worse, their own apprentice.

And by "belittle" I do not mean "go rough" or "be abrupt". I mean down right make feel unwelcomed/undervalued/expendable. No amount of rationalizing undoes what is very clearly selfish and immature behavior by a member who supposedly has "put in the time and effort into living the Doctrine".

But of course, this ministry is a service I am not paying for, so I guess I have no right to complain.

Senan wrote: In effect, there is no way to properly "advertise" TOTJO in a sentence on our homepage just as there is no single sentence that can properly sum up being Christian in a way that won't be incredibly vague.

Why does it have to be a single sentence?

I say for myself:
I don’t think anyone here wants a strict rule by rule doctrine check on anyone. I don’t think anyone expects anyone to not mess up and to not make mistakes. I don’t think there is an expectation of perfection. There’s definitely no expectation that we agree on what every single thing means or that whatever one thing means for someone will mean the same thing to the next person.
Saying that it’s a matter of disagreement on doctrine is just missing the point...
Saying that those of us who leave or don’t want rank because our expectations aren’t being met and the doctrine not upheld to our individual standards is simply untrue and extremely dismissive. These are things I struggled with months before I made a decision, tears, asking for advise, trying to figure it all out - and then for months after. Even now.
And it’s not your fault - it’s mine - because I cannot word it correctly.
I can’t put into words how I feel that those with higher rank should be prepared correctly for that rank - should be ready to lead by example and be held even more accountable than whatever rank they had before. Doctrine wise? No. It really doesn’t have anything to do with the doctrine, to be completely honest... it’s more than that... or less than that..
Leadership is a big responsibility. One that should be taken seriously and cultivated constantly. The doctrine is idealistic - a level of perfection no one will be able to attain - how could anyone hold anyone else to that while applying their own systems of morality to it? You can’t. So it isn’t that...
So what is it?
Is it that I took myself too seriously? I demanded too much from myself? Is it that I wasn’t ready for the rank I was given and was hurt by the way things were going on between myself, other Jedi, and my own training master? I said so many times I wasn’t ready... but the time was spent and the points were there and he was done...
I’m willing to accept that it could very well just be myself projecting expectation - but it’s not of the doctrine. It’s not of perfection. It’s not even of complete transparency - because that, too, is impossible for obvious reasons. And perhaps this will come across, again, as my expectations not being met and an ego thing. I can’t determine how others interpret my words..
And please forgive me for not being able to explain this better...
I can’t figure out why I have such a difficult time with it. Maybe it’s too personal? Maybe it’s something I see still happening to others and I know I can’t do anything about it?
And it could be my personal background, before ever coming to Totjo in the first place.
And it could also simply be... I’m not a Jedi and I’m on the wrong path.
I’m still trying to figure these things out. And until I do... I don’t think I will be able to explain it.
So I guess I’m just here to say... it’s not what you think it is and I’m sorry. I promise to keep working on it..

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote: In effect, there is no way to properly "advertise" TOTJO in a sentence on our homepage just as there is no single sentence that can properly sum up being Christian in a way that won't be incredibly vague.

Why does it have to be a single sentence?

Because you keep quoting a single sentence on our homepage in your arguments supporting why this site is deceiving people... Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

Manu wrote:

Senan wrote: If someone has become disappointed with the community, it is likely for one of two reasons. Either this person entered with an initial unbending expectation that has not been met and never can be, or this person has not put enough time and effort into actually trying to live the Doctrine in their life to an extent that they can see any value in what good it might have to offer despite having some points that might not meet their initial impression of being a Jedi.

False dichotomy.

There are some who do not get disappointed with this community at all, only with management in particular, and sometimes especifically with one or two of the people managing, for that matter.

It's easy to say "check yourself" when it comes to expectations regarding what you want this place (and Jediism in general) to be. It's not easy to hear it when the person telling you to check yourself turns around and belittles a member, or even worse, their own apprentice.

And by "belittle" I do not mean "go rough" or "be abrupt". I mean down right make feel unwelcomed/undervalued/expendable. No amount of rationalizing undoes what is very clearly selfish and immature behavior by a member who supposedly has "put in the time and effort into living the Doctrine".

But of course, this ministry is a service I am not paying for, so I guess I have no right to complain.

I was responding in the context to the original post stating that one source of disappointment is that people have false expectations for this place. Granting that premise, I've offered two reasons why these false expectations could result in disappointment.

There are obviously a million other reasons one could become disappointed with this community and want to leave. If I called you an a-hole for no reason every time you posted anything here, that would also be a good reason to question my leadership, the judgment of those who put me in this position, and the general motives of the entire place. That would be a justifiable reason to be disappointed and wish to leave this place, but that isn't what the original post was about.

I do not claim to be a perfect living example of our Doctrine, nor do I expect that of anyone else here. In fact, I would say that the longer I am here and the more I study, the more I realize that I am flawed and need to change the expectations I have for myself. I also realize that the more I pick apart our Doctrine, the easier it is to find reasons to disagree with it or to question its meaning. That hasn't lessened the value of it to me, but instead caused me to at least try to be less judgmental of others who express their disagreement with all or parts of it while still encouraging them to pursue the Jedi path and take what is valuable to them from it.