Why so many people become disappointed with this community

Onllwyn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @Onllwyn (and Telehane)

Who are you expecting these things from? Just yourself or others? And what happens when others don’t live up to your expectations? Why do you put others on a pedestal in this way and then judge them if and when they fall off in your eyes? Are they something more than human to you? Incapable of error or failure? Do you perceive them as some form of demigod?

This place is not a hierarchy where the greater the rank the greater the wisdom. It is a cooperative of peers all seeking the same answers to the same questions. No one here is better or more able to live the life of a Jedi than any other. I don't care if you’re a master knight or a guest. We are all equal in navigating this experience the best we each can. And for one of us to judge the others is an incorrect attitude based in hubris.

It sounds as if you are looking for someone to lead you and others. To dictate what to think and how to act and what to believe. You want things to be simple and neat and tidy and if there is an issue an authority figure will spit out the answer, not to be questioned under pain of punishment.

Fortunately this "church" does not do things that way. This is a place you can come and find the answers you seek but YOU have to do the work, study the human condition, decide for yourself what is right, and then live that construct to the best of your ability. The biggest part of that is allowing others to live theirs in the same way. It’s not fair for you place your disappointment at the feet of others that you have decided deserve it because they failed some standard you alone decided to hold them to and then use it as an excuse to leave. If you use this place the way it’s intended the only one that will have the power to disappoint you spiritually is yourself.

If this is how you have interpreted my answer, I'm not sure how any amount of explaining could possibly do. If you choose to deflect the concerns of others so completely. What is the point of discussion? I never said any of that, and you have simply decided what I meant to fit your narrative.

I think Kyrin's response was more directed at me and my history with the temple then you so much, also kyrin's personal goal at misspelling my name as much as possible

I've kinda figured out for me the way this place works is kind of comparable to a band.

"Religion" being the band, and TOTJO being "that really odd album they put out last year", which you have people from all walks of life interpreting it in different ways.

You have people who say "wait, isn't this supposed to be [insert genre here]? But this album does not live up to this genre! What a disappointment!".

But then you have other people who approach it, and think "Actually, this is quite refreshing to have an album like this for once! It shows [insert a list of unique positive qualities here]."

The decision of the direction of the album has its good qualities at the cost of not so good qualities. But the thing is, you have fans who "demand the band go back to how they are supposed to sound", to which the band may choose not to, if the band does what they do for their own artistic reasons and not because of the demands of the fans. If they were lead by the fans, they might end up writing the same ol' crap over and over, so its either go one direction and disappoint one audience, or go another and disappoint the other. In the end, many would agree that the integrity behind what direction the band decides to go in is the most important since, without the that integrity, it wouldn't ever know what it wants to do, it would just be blindly pulled around by what the fans want.

So you have the other crowd who respect the band on a level to support them regardless of what direction their sound goes, because they can see what they are getting at and why. The band is going to do what it does regardless of if you buy their albums or not, and you are either with them on their journey of musical self discovery through which you experience your own, or you decide that you are simply a consumer of entertainment for which they have to meet your demands if they want your money.

I have always supported the direction this "band" (spirituality) has gone into with the album "TOTJO Jediism", for the very reason described above. I don't like treating a community like a consumer goes into Burger King to demand they get it their way. However, after a time, I have to "put away the CD" for a while to go "listen to some other music", otherwise, this music would just really get played out to me. I think It's important to be able to do that and not get so clung up on "listening to only one band/genre/album" otherwise, you do fall into losing respect for it because you let the demanding consumer mindset kick in, when the whole time, it wasn't ever about that at all. It was about finding yourself through what is and what will be with or without you. At least for me, this is what has taken me leaps and bounds from where I was 5 years ago, and I can't imagine that most of the progress I made in my self discovery would have ever happened had I gotten hung up on the "temple consumer" mindset. I discovered an amazing genre that introduced me to new ideas I had no idea would be so important to have learned, and one of those ideas, is that what I thought was right and real about how my world works, maybe necessarily always isn't. And that was good news to me, but it could have only come about with a community that is as open ended as this one, with the sacrifices of things that people tend to expect from it that were needed to be this way.

I will add one more thing to my explanation to try and help you all see it from the stream of disappointed new people.

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But first, let me say this because it's REALLY important - just because I'm disappointed about the things I've mentioned, I have NEVER said that this place is not full of an INCREDIBLE amount of valuable information and AMAZINGLY wonderful people. Everyone seems to be assuming that because I'm unhappy with some things, that it is a blanket rejection. I'm not going anywhere, and I have oh so much to learn. I also have decided that all knowledge is useful at one time or another, so I don't discount anything.
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I'm going to try this as a metaphor, because so many of you seem to be so deep in the weeds, you can't even see the tree, never mind the forest. I don't mean that as an insult - it happens to us all in different areas of our life.

My experience has been like going to a book store. I'm desperately trying to find a mystery book (and don't read into my subject choices - just picking at random) I like. I head over to the mystery book shelf and begin perusing covers. I find a cover that looks interesting. I flip it over and read the teaser on the back. Oh man - it sounds fantastic! It's set in the future, it's full of unsavory characters and a murder. I buy it straight away and I can not WAIT to get home and start reading. I pour a glass of wine, sit in my favorite chair and start reading.

And suddenly I'm reading a turn of the century romance novel.

And after all of your responses, it feels like you were all separate pages of a book, and you decided you were going to join together and become a murder mystery. You designed the jacket, you wrote the summary, and then you started joining together and began evolving into a romance novel. But you all decided you really like the romance novel you've become. So you continue to evolve and refine and you've become this AMAZING romance novel. And you're all happy with it. Which is FANTASTIC.

But you forgot to change your cover. So you still look like a mystery, and you're still in the mystery section.

I think that's where my disappointment came from, and why it keeps happening. It doesn't mean you're not a GREAT book, full of incredible worth. You're just pulling an audience who is expecting something else. I think that's where the sense of false advertising is coming from that was mentioned.

And when that happens, each individual is going to react a differently. Some are just going to say "This is stupid" and leave. Some will be wounded deeply and need to say so. Some will try and help you see what is happening from their perspective <cough> (only to be lectured and shot down).

I hope this helps clarify the perspective of those on the outside looking in, at least as I've experienced it.

I'm more than happy to talk in person as well with those that would like to learn more about my perspective. Send me a private message and I will work with you to find a time.

Onllwyn wrote: I will add one more thing to my explanation to try and help you all see it from the stream of disappointed new people.

---

But first, let me say this because it's REALLY important - just because I'm disappointed about the things I've mentioned, I have NEVER said that this place is not full of an INCREDIBLE amount of valuable information and AMAZINGLY wonderful people. Everyone seems to be assuming that because I'm unhappy with some things, that it is a blanket rejection. I'm not going anywhere, and I have oh so much to learn. I also have decided that all knowledge is useful at one time or another, so I don't discount anything.
____________________________________________________________

I'm going to try this as a metaphor, because so many of you seem to be so deep in the weeds, you can't even see the tree, never mind the forest. I don't mean that as an insult - it happens to us all in different areas of our life.

My experience has been like going to a book store. I'm desperately trying to find a mystery book (and don't read into my subject choices - just picking at random) I like. I head over to the mystery book shelf and begin perusing covers. I find a cover that looks interesting. I flip it over and read the teaser on the back. Oh man - it sounds fantastic! It's set in the future, it's full of unsavory characters and a murder. I buy it straight away and I can not WAIT to get home and start reading. I pour a glass of wine, sit in my favorite chair and start reading.

And suddenly I'm reading a turn of the century romance novel.

And after all of your responses, it feels like you were all separate pages of a book, and you decided you were going to join together and become a murder mystery. You designed the jacket, you wrote the summary, and then you started joining together and began evolving into a romance novel. But you all decided you really like the romance novel you've become. So you continue to evolve and refine and you've become this AMAZING romance novel. And you're all happy with it. Which is FANTASTIC.

But you forgot to change your cover. So you still look like a mystery, and you're still in the mystery section.

I think that's where my disappointment came from, and why it keeps happening. It doesn't mean you're not a GREAT book, full of incredible worth. You're just pulling an audience who is expecting something else. I think that's where the sense of false advertising is coming from that was mentioned.

And when that happens, each individual is going to react a differently. Some are just going to say "This is stupid" and leave. Some will be wounded deeply and need to say so. Some will try and help you see what is happening from their perspective <cough> (only to be lectured and shot down).

I hope this helps clarify the perspective of those on the outside looking in, at least as I've experienced it.

I'm more than happy to talk in person as well with those that would like to learn more about my perspective. Send me a private message and I will work with you to find a time.

I think that's a pretty accurate metaphor, great work putting that to words!

Kyrin’s point regarding disillusionment and expectation is a very valid one, and certainly one I’ve often struggled with myself.

But no amount of “personal responsibility” on “check your expectations”, excuses leadership being so willing to insult, belittle or otherwise censor its members.

Then again, as some have said, if you set the bar as low as possible for TotJO and Jediism, you’ll never be disappointed. That advice is telling of the quality this community shoots for.

So, I think the issue in my analogy and in Onllwyn's, is that TOTJO isn't a product. If it were a product (and one being sold), then a lot of the types of typical approaches that people have here would be relevant enough to be clearly true.

But I don't think TOTJO is a product, with "quality standards" or something that "you get your money's worth from". To me, its like looking at a Rorschach image and saying "Maybe if this thing had some standard of quality to it, like colors and detailed objects, scenery and people, then I could use it to tell you what I see in it!"

Others treat TOTJO like its a country with a political system that must meet the demands of its people. But I don't think that is what this is either.

There is a lot of the typical familiar world that people try to bring into the temple with them and apply it, because that is what we know off hand and we don't quite know how to navigate it otherwise. Some of us come in with a set of these ideas which are eventually broken and what we see in its wake is actually something we feel is a lot better than what we thought, something more organic and more ephemeral in nature. Some have called this "escaping the matrix". But others insist that what they see the temple to be is in fact what it is, or otherwise, if their image of it is shattered, what is left in its wake is something they do not want to accept or come to understand, so they leave. I think what "is left" when the image is shattered is what Kyrin is talking about. You either accept it, or you don't. But I think it is what it is whether or not you want it to be.

What I saw was something that rearranged the entire model of what is important and what is not when it comes to a place like this. I saw no point in debating what the council does or says or thinks, because its a waste of personal energy. I'm not responsible for them, and they quite clearly go through enough trying to manage this place as it is to have earned enough trust that they actually do care and they do try. I'm also not responsible for what Kyrin thinks or Zenchi, or joe blow elsewhere says or does. Worrying about it is a waste of energy. It's inefficient, and its a distraction from more important things. I'm only responsible for myself and what I do to get my own quality out of this place. So my focus goes back on myself and those I'm most closely associated with, and my personal journey. To do otherwise would simply be insulting that journey and the whole point of the temple in the bigger picture.

I"m sorry for the Star Wars/Extended Universe reference here, but it is relevant. In the Universe had Councillors, Guardians, Healers, Sentinels, and a whole host of other Jedi types. Each had their own view on what being a Jedi was; but each of the were still Jedi. We are naturally going to have some different view on what being a Jedi is. If you look at the Jedi types from the Star Wars universe, they are basically personality archetypes. Each Jedi type shows a person of that personality archetype how they can be Jedi. I know in real life, you will always get people that don't fit into a specific mold, and that is good; that can teach us quite a bit as well. There are also people that need those more defined categories, and that is good; that can teach us quite a bit as well.
I know in some ways I'm sort of a bad one for discussing expectations (healthy or unhealthy). My biggest expectation at this point is don't abuse or rape me, and I already know from past experiences in my life, that I don't have a right to that expectation. Trying to look at this in a more healthy way though, I think that all of you are right. There are people in life with many expectations, and inevitably they will be disappointed. There are people in life that have a more balanced level of expectations, and sometimes they will be disappointed as well. There are also people in life that have too few, or no expectations. They might not always get disappointed, but I won't sit here and try to say that that view is always healthy. I was genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised when Nakis, Alethea, and Rosalyn kept in contact with me during the hurricane. Experience had taught me that they might send a text or two, but then would have better things to do. I was also genuinely (and pleasantly ) surprised with the support and friendship that Nakis, Alethea, Rosalyn,and Carlos have offered me. No one made fun of anything I have said. No one made fun of the fact that I was calm during the hurricane, only to have panic attacks after it was over and we were safe.
There might be room for a few broad expectations, with room to personalize how those expectations are met. I'm still new to the temple, and I'm still learning the ins and outs here. I'm probably not the best person to make suggestions on how to help things go smoother. I"m more than willing to help though.
We are all only human. Where this should never be used as an excuse, with the whole shoulder shrug ;oh well, I'm only human'. It is something that we all need to keep in mind. Yes we all should strive to be the best people (in general, world wide) and the best Jedi (for those of us that are walking the path) that we can be. We all need to remember that being human does pose certain constraints on us. Plans go haywire, life is perfectly capable of throwing surprises at us, and in general stuff happens. All we can do is do the best we can, learn from past mistakes, and try to do better.
I've been looking through the forum entries. The problems that I have seen here are problems that all people have. I have seen people at least willing to try to talk about the problems and try to find solutions. I have seen people willing to say that the person they are arguing with has good points. I have seen people that realize that no place, group, or person is perfect; but they are still willing to try to make things better. I have seen people willing to admit when they have made mistakes. I have seen people, however imperfect as we all are, try to help make us a stronger family.

Manu wrote: Then again, as some have said, if you set the bar as low as possible for TotJO and Jediism, you’ll never be disappointed. That advice is telling of the quality this community shoots for.

Ding ding ding!

Connor L. wrote:

Manu wrote: Then again, as some have said, if you set the bar as low as possible for TotJO and Jediism, you’ll never be disappointed. That advice is telling of the quality this community shoots for.

Ding ding ding!

Yet - this Temple creates no bar setting of any kind. The type of “barsetting” for character and quality can be placed by the individual and is encouraged. If the individual looks to a place to set - THEIR bar - they will almost always be mistaken and left feeling empty handed.
Granted - there are minimum standards expected with tile and rank as far as lessons and requirements but even then- we give the individual the ability to choose those here. You can choose to answer yes or no or even reflect or express. The amount and depth is strictly to the individual. One hope I have as far as the Temple is conserned is that we can give to those individuals willing to partake - the hope and the opertunity - not the definition of their faith.
This is my own opinion and what I hope for.
To many times I grew upset because I wasn’t told directly or didn’t have it given to me - or defined. It can be frustrating but untill I learned to take up my own liberty as a Jedi - then I began to grow and can’t stop now!

So we should have no expectations, shouldn’t care about what others are doing, and should focus solely on our own path and why we do what we do?
So really the purpose of a forum, putting your lessons into it for everyone (of the proper rank) to see, and having a community centered around growth is for what? Why be here? I get personal growth and development and all that, but why does anyone need to post about it where others see it? Recognition? Validation? Why not just do it privately? How do we learn and grow from that?
Isn’t wanting recognition and validation (ranks) just as big of an ego trap as expectation?
And if we shouldn’t care about what others are doing in the negative light, why should anyone care what anyone is doing in the positive light? Why be a community at all? If we aren’t going to put effort into it and only focus on our own paths... how is that even a community? And then why even comment about anything at all?

I know all of this sounds really awful and like I’m trying to cause more problems than anything, but these are honestly things I wonder and have wondered about for a long time. And it seems like here and now is the best time and place to ask.