A Wolf Among the Sheep

I was going to post in reply, but honestly I found myself repeating what I've already said, because some of the questions you're asking I've already answered, while it took asking the same question six times before you provided an answer. Talking with you Kryin has been incredibly tiring, you might find this fascinating, but I can't be bothered to participate in a conversation which has been constructed in this way. If the next conversation is more open and direct and runs around in fewer circles I'll be more willing to participate.

Akkarin wrote: I was going to post in reply, but honestly I found myself repeating what I've already said, because some of the questions you're asking I've already answered, while it took asking the same question six times before you provided an answer. Talking with you Kryin has been incredibly tiring, you might find this fascinating, but I can't be bothered to participate in a conversation which has been constructed in this way. If the next conversation is more open and direct and runs around in fewer circles I'll be more willing to participate.

Ok, if you can't be bothered that's fine. I keep asking the same question because you kept asking the same question, implying you were not getting it. and while others here have posted some quite insightful and thoughtful comments you are correct that our conversation has been frustrating. So I am quite happy to end it. Thanks for your time anyway.

Proteus wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: How is it that you have come to the conclusion that your subjective experience is so profound that you have the wisdom to decide what we all experience or need or feel or experience?

Well, Is it really so profound though? :laugh: Is it any more profound than, for example, the fact that we all breathe air (something else that all humans do)?

Does one also need authority to talk about how we all breathe air or does one just have to be human to know because that is also an integral feature of being human (something that you and I both share, just like we share the feature of having an ego)? Am I making an incorrect assumption that you are human and that you experience life with thoughts, emotions, and physical senses?

To be fair, you do kind of give an impression when you post that you have a clear hang up with "authority" (and seem to find it in people around the temple who I believe actually do attempt to approach you on an even level), as you tend to take many opportunities to use the term to come off as saying "you're not the boss of me" when nobody ever said they were and ought to be obvious they are not actually trying to. (This is not me making conclusions, like you are charging Akkarin with doing, this is, again, me saying that from this point of view that is actually the impression you give off) Could you explain why it is you (someone who continues on as an apprentice in a temple with the kind of ranking structure it has) do this as regularly as you do?

Yes we all have ego and you are correct in that. But behind that any attempt to speak about what any individual who is experiencing seems to take it to far. You imply that in my post I'm experiencing a run away ego. I don't have a particular problem with authority but I do have a problem with people that assume authority where none is granted.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You have decided that I am a wolf among the sheep. That I don’t deserve to be in this place. Maybe this is true, but where are you? I walk a path where success may seem unlikely, victory improbable and that may be. But if this journey were for everyone I would not want it. Victory comes in many forms but defeat only comes in surrender.

You stand there and you point to your own limitations and boundaries while proclaiming they should also be mine. But that’s the funny thing about personal boundaries. They really only exist where each of us individually place them. I place mine… behind me. You love to make things unnecessarily complicated. There is a reason for that. Its fear, fear of the unknown, fear of the cold, fear of being bested. Instead of walking into the darkness you cower by the fire, clinging to the majority and creating reasons why it’s too hard, too tough. You spend your time constructing distractions and making up excuses.

You have not been able to face that fact that, in reality, there is no hard and there is no easy. There is only the goal and the price that must be paid. Your eyes watch me, observing from a distance, wondering just maybe, if you could possibly be brave enough to do what I do. All the while never realizing that the darkness actually cannot be avoided. All that each of us really have control over, is how we confront it when it arrives, either on our terms or its terms. And it is your own indecision, frozen in fear, that allows it to consume you as it desires.

There is a saying. The wolf need not concern herself with the opinions of the sheep. Those that cower by the flame and watch and admire are also the first to judge and criticize, to condemn. But listening to that rhetoric only serves to contradict the very spirit inside that gives the wolf her power, her strength. Her ascent is menacing because she is not like everyone else. She dares to be different and that is threatening to the herd.

There will always be points in my life where the cliffs rise above me, the forest hinders my way and others tell me no, that I’m wrong. Perfect… perfect because this is my home, my unspoiled place. My “right now” that I revel in. Not a place of doubt but a place of passion. My promise to self to reach that summit unfolding before my very eyes as each second passes. This is my truth, this is my reality. Embracing what makes me different, not suppressing it. I fight for my separation from the herd by walking steadily into what most fight to avoid. I do this in pursuit of a return most only dare to dream of.

As far as I’m concerned you can either do the same or spend your life wishing that you did. Sheep stay within the confines of what they know, angry at those who dare to venture out, who want more. Yet they are angrier at themselves for staying right where they are, avoiding the fight, even running from it. Wolves know this is all there is, one chance, one opportunity. And they mean to take it. You call me manipulative, fine with me. But before you pass judgement, look hard at your reflection and then ask yourself, what are you? Admit to that truth and then live with it accordingly.

You talk alot of s&#! for a guy who hides behind an avatar and keyboard....

This is not a place to incite or even provoke one another . If it come to this then maybe it's time to re evaluate things like ... this thread . No one forces any one to answer a forum thread and no one can make you feel inferior without your own consent . Once again , this is a church, never a lace to inflict pain or anger and when it come time - if that's what's happening - let's take a step back . Yes? It's obvious it's come to that now .

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Yes we all have ego and you are correct in that. But behind that any attempt to speak about what any individual who is experiencing seems to take it to far. You imply that in my post I'm experiencing a run away ego. I don't have a particular problem with authority but I do have a problem with people that assume authority where none is granted.

I'm not sure just saying that is very convincing. In order to make an argument, a good approach tends to include elaborating with points on Why and How about the content of it. Deflections and redirections and avoidance of the actual content of a topic can make one seem as if they really dont have any knowledge or understanding about it while refusing to consider that what the other person has said might be a learning opportunity.

What we find here, Kyrin, is that your choice in approach to questions and observations, simply shows that you have a chip on your shoulder and you would rather not let anybody make you look like a fool for it.. which taking that approach would be accomplishing that on its own. What would secure your integrity would be the opposite of the approach you have been taking (ie. considering what people are asking, giving strait answers, and strait responses to those replies that aren't questions, and admitting to what you may not have thought about and might be good to consider).

Whether or not I have "authority" to speak on someone experience becomes irrelevant while your approaches to discussions directly reflects the observations described. Probably better to refer to that, than deflect it with what you have.

Zenchi wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You have decided that I am a wolf among the sheep. That I don’t deserve to be in this place. Maybe this is true, but where are you? I walk a path where success may seem unlikely, victory improbable and that may be. But if this journey were for everyone I would not want it. Victory comes in many forms but defeat only comes in surrender.

You stand there and you point to your own limitations and boundaries while proclaiming they should also be mine. But that’s the funny thing about personal boundaries. They really only exist where each of us individually place them. I place mine… behind me. You love to make things unnecessarily complicated. There is a reason for that. Its fear, fear of the unknown, fear of the cold, fear of being bested. Instead of walking into the darkness you cower by the fire, clinging to the majority and creating reasons why it’s too hard, too tough. You spend your time constructing distractions and making up excuses.

You have not been able to face that fact that, in reality, there is no hard and there is no easy. There is only the goal and the price that must be paid. Your eyes watch me, observing from a distance, wondering just maybe, if you could possibly be brave enough to do what I do. All the while never realizing that the darkness actually cannot be avoided. All that each of us really have control over, is how we confront it when it arrives, either on our terms or its terms. And it is your own indecision, frozen in fear, that allows it to consume you as it desires.

There is a saying. The wolf need not concern herself with the opinions of the sheep. Those that cower by the flame and watch and admire are also the first to judge and criticize, to condemn. But listening to that rhetoric only serves to contradict the very spirit inside that gives the wolf her power, her strength. Her ascent is menacing because she is not like everyone else. She dares to be different and that is threatening to the herd.

There will always be points in my life where the cliffs rise above me, the forest hinders my way and others tell me no, that I’m wrong. Perfect… perfect because this is my home, my unspoiled place. My “right now” that I revel in. Not a place of doubt but a place of passion. My promise to self to reach that summit unfolding before my very eyes as each second passes. This is my truth, this is my reality. Embracing what makes me different, not suppressing it. I fight for my separation from the herd by walking steadily into what most fight to avoid. I do this in pursuit of a return most only dare to dream of.

As far as I’m concerned you can either do the same or spend your life wishing that you did. Sheep stay within the confines of what they know, angry at those who dare to venture out, who want more. Yet they are angrier at themselves for staying right where they are, avoiding the fight, even running from it. Wolves know this is all there is, one chance, one opportunity. And they mean to take it. You call me manipulative, fine with me. But before you pass judgement, look hard at your reflection and then ask yourself, what are you? Admit to that truth and then live with it accordingly.

You talk alot of s&#! for a guy who hides behind an avatar and keyboard....

I know this is a bit of a gray area because one could argue that Kyrin's first post is also a personal attack, but replies like this are an act of instigation without productivity (unless instigation is the product you're looking for? But I'd rather not see another thread roll out that way). Would you care to reword this reply to be more productive to the conversation? I know you're an artist with words as much as with your pencils

I know this is a bit of a gray area because one could argue that Kyrin's first post is also a personal attack, but replies like this are an act of instigation without productivity (unless instigation is the product you're looking for? But I'd rather not see another thread roll out that way). Would you care to reword this reply to be more productive to the conversation? I know you're an artist with words as much as with your pencils

I can "reword" it and be more specific, lol...

Zenchi wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You have decided that I am a wolf among the sheep. That I don’t deserve to be in this place. Maybe this is true, but where are you? I walk a path where success may seem unlikely, victory improbable and that may be. But if this journey were for everyone I would not want it. Victory comes in many forms but defeat only comes in surrender.

You stand there and you point to your own limitations and boundaries while proclaiming they should also be mine. But that’s the funny thing about personal boundaries. They really only exist where each of us individually place them. I place mine… behind me. You love to make things unnecessarily complicated. There is a reason for that. Its fear, fear of the unknown, fear of the cold, fear of being bested. Instead of walking into the darkness you cower by the fire, clinging to the majority and creating reasons why it’s too hard, too tough. You spend your time constructing distractions and making up excuses.

You have not been able to face that fact that, in reality, there is no hard and there is no easy. There is only the goal and the price that must be paid. Your eyes watch me, observing from a distance, wondering just maybe, if you could possibly be brave enough to do what I do. All the while never realizing that the darkness actually cannot be avoided. All that each of us really have control over, is how we confront it when it arrives, either on our terms or its terms. And it is your own indecision, frozen in fear, that allows it to consume you as it desires.

There is a saying. The wolf need not concern herself with the opinions of the sheep. Those that cower by the flame and watch and admire are also the first to judge and criticize, to condemn. But listening to that rhetoric only serves to contradict the very spirit inside that gives the wolf her power, her strength. Her ascent is menacing because she is not like everyone else. She dares to be different and that is threatening to the herd.

There will always be points in my life where the cliffs rise above me, the forest hinders my way and others tell me no, that I’m wrong. Perfect… perfect because this is my home, my unspoiled place. My “right now” that I revel in. Not a place of doubt but a place of passion. My promise to self to reach that summit unfolding before my very eyes as each second passes. This is my truth, this is my reality. Embracing what makes me different, not suppressing it. I fight for my separation from the herd by walking steadily into what most fight to avoid. I do this in pursuit of a return most only dare to dream of.

As far as I’m concerned you can either do the same or spend your life wishing that you did. Sheep stay within the confines of what they know, angry at those who dare to venture out, who want more. Yet they are angrier at themselves for staying right where they are, avoiding the fight, even running from it. Wolves know this is all there is, one chance, one opportunity. And they mean to take it. You call me manipulative, fine with me. But before you pass judgement, look hard at your reflection and then ask yourself, what are you? Admit to that truth and then live with it accordingly.

You talk alot of s&#! for a guy who hides behind an avatar and keyboard....

Kit wrote: I know this is a bit of a gray area because one could argue that Kyrin's first post is also a personal attack, but replies like this are an act of instigation without productivity (unless instigation is the product you're looking for? But I'd rather not see another thread roll out that way). Would you care to reword this reply to be more productive to the conversation? I know you're an artist with words as much as with your pencils

I can "reword" it and be more specific, lol...

I don't know your mind so I can't say if that would add anything to the conversation or not. I'm just sorely tired of watching conversations devolve into snaping fangs. Threads like that cause stress and frustraition and I've had to several times, walk away from the Temple to get fresh air because I couldn't deal with both of my homes being such a mess.

So if your rewording will benifit the conversation, please feel free. If not, nothing else needs to be said.

This topic and the responses to it has opened my eyes once again to behavior I consider common in this forum. There is a whole lot of conformation bias going on here that is based more on the person creating the thread than the actual words being typed. The original post, while it could easily be directed at a specific individual and considered passive aggressive, can also just as easily be read as directed at society in general and the common experience of not fitting in everywhere we go. It can be an agreeable opinion or not, and we should be able to discuss it without demanding to know the specific purpose or intent of the author. I doubt people knew what Plato or Socrates were talking about half the time, but the ideas were discussed anyway.

It is most disappointing to me that a conversation that included some pretty insightful commentary along these lines has turned into a debate about the "proper" methods of sharing an opinion; a debate being waged mainly by some people who have been here for quite some time and should've learned by now that there is value in these interactions for others even if we as individuals don't find it for ourselves. It is particularly sad that a Knight here would openly refer to it as "talking s&#t" and accuse someone who is taking a risk by sharing this opinion in the first place of "hiding behind an avatar and keyboard." Out of respect for Kyrin, I won't fight her battle for her with specifics, but one might consider actually asking her about the meaning behind the avatar before engaging in the conversation this way.

Honestly, If I had written this original post and received some of these reactions, my answer would have been quite simple. If you don't get the point of the post or your questions are not being answered to your satisfaction, why are you still participating? There are plenty of others threads to participate in, or one could go start there own. Nobody here owes anyone a satisfactory answer about anything. If we did, the constant assertion here that "everyone walks their own path" would be wrong and our Doctrine wouldn't be open to interpretation the way it is. To me, that was the message of the original post. Sometimes we feel like a lone wolf, fighting a battle that others don't understand. Sometimes we feel like we don't fit in, and yet are compelled to continue trying anyway. Sometimes we pretend to be something we aren't for the sake of being included, or we remain true to ourselves and end up alone. The reactions here have demonstrated this to me just as well as the original post did, so that is what I'm taking from this.