Ramblings of a Security Officer

Atticus wrote: The converse, however, is that we each have a degree of responsibility for the quality of the experience that our members and guests have when they are here. It's well and good that I challenge my own ability to continue to make the right decisions under stress. I don't have the right to demand that standard of everyone who enters, and neither does anyone else here.

This goes back to the previous emphasis on purpose. Everything that I agreed to participate in is outlined in the TOTJO FAQ section. I'm going to bring this comment over from the "Resignation" thread because I feel it is more pertinent to the discussion here:

Kyrin wrote:
"This is a place of conflict by design not through unwanted interaction. This is how the membership grows and learns about themselves." (emphasis mine)

Someone please show me where the TOTJO rules and FAQ says that, or even supports it. Because I apparently missed it, if so, and that would have affected my decision.

My frustration of late has been that I came to TOTJO looking for a community of praxis that would help add fuel to my spiritual "furnace" - the engine that helps me do the difficult work I do in the world. Based on TOTJO's doctrine and what I saw outlined in the FAQ, I believed that there was enough shared commonality between my individual purpose and the group purpose to warrant joining here as a member of a Temple. Otherwise, I would have kept moving on. I have sufficient avenues for sharpening my "weapons" in my daily life, having chosen the best arenas I can find for that particular work, and that's not what I'm seeking to add to my life. And I have more than sufficient stress and conflict in my day to day life to test them with...I do not need something that brings in more, especially if it is "by design."

I appreciate that there are many different levels of work being done here, and my individual desire is only one of many that the Temple tries to meet in various ways:

The self-led IP work is based in self-reflection and contemplation, with a very restrained level of oversight from people who have been given some level of accountability in the organization for doing so.

The Apprentice work can get as conflict-based and challenging as the Knight & Apprentice wish to make it (hence it's a really good thing that those partnerships are chosen by the two involved).

The sermons and such are more standard "church-like" inspirational fare.

The discussions in the Forum are many things to many people: a place to appeal for help with serious life problems (based on the high numbers of people who turn to it for help), a place to share knowledge or interests, a debate forum where people expect and provoke conflict for both fun and edification, a place for entertainments, organizing... etc. and etc.

People gravitate toward the specific things they need, but when all these are taking place in an interconnected online environment, then allowing one to go outside of the overall organizational purpose starts to drag the purpose in another direction. And that does affect the tone of the Temple. Even when not dragged into the shoutbox to get a bigger audience and more attention, the conflicts demand the behind the scenes energy of people who then have less time to spend in other areas that would be enriched by their involvement or sustain their enjoyment. It frequently spreads over into other conversations or hijacks other discussions.

This is not a problem that moderators can "fix", imo - they would have to become so heavy-handed that it would be oppressive to the audience and unbearably time-consuming for them. To both respect individual freedom and have a thriving and productive group arena, one has to understand the core mission and purpose from top to bottom, that this thing is made up of the sum of its parts, and every part affects every other. That is why respectful language is important. A blow up in one area is going to hamper the others, and there will be enough conflict just from naturally occurring friction.

In the three months I've been here, I've seen enough repetition in the arguments and their patterns to agree with the general gist of the frustration Tellahane expressed. I also greatly resonated with similar recent journal posts from others - I've also been telling myself a lot lately to just focus on the IP, personal reflections and private conversations, and leave the rest of it alone rather than allow it to eat up as much time and energy as my participation in this thread has. Whatever exhaustion I'm feeling as a relative newcomer, I know it is even more intense behind the scenes (having been there). And that has really tempered the enthusiasm that I had starting out here and made me think carefully before getting any more heavily invested - not from having unrealistic expectations, but from having enough experience to know what I'd be getting into with this level of community conflict if I decided to pursue clergy status.

The thing that really saddens me is that I haven't seen much that wouldn't have been prevented or at least kept down to minimal fallout by proper application of Rule #1 by the individuals themselves. I'm not asking for any special consideration or anything that hasn't already been laid down as an existing rule and policy of this Temple to be applied. My only hope is that there is a breakthrough coming up out of all this back and forth, and that there will be more understanding and empathy between members as a result.

Manu wrote: One was bathed in nutella and the other chocolate glazed with a gooey blackberry jam filling.

Kyrin, so, you are all about the learning through conflict. And now you feel hurt? I'm confused.

There is a difference between learning through conflict and being threatened by someone you considered a friend.

It doesn't confuse me Manu. Personally, reading that exchange hurt me too. I imagine it might have hurt a few people in the temple. I'm not pretending that it will have hurt everyone; and the ones that have been hurt by it will have been hurt for quite different reasons and to differing extents. Both Atticus and Kyrin said that they feel hurt; possibly for different reasons, but I am pretty sure one of the reasons they are hurting will be the same; that their friendship has been shaken. Both sides, I reckon. And that sucks. Conflict hurts; and we can learn something from that. It's not confusing. We can learn that there may be better ways of doing conflict.

Kyrin; I still think you have a free will choice. I think Atticus was just reminding you that the temple won't change overnight to your will. I know it doesn't change to his, and it doesn't change to mine; and that leaves us with a choice. We can take or leave the temple as it is now. Which is with some rules. I don't like rules. They challenge me because, despite this sweet twiggy exterior, I get angry about stuff and I want to throw things on occasion. But I choose to keep them here; cause I like it here. I get more out of it than I put in, and I don't want to be pushed out by having broken those rules. I don't consider myself a coward, or a conformist. I have brought a fair few points to the council's attention via it's secretary. It's made some small tweak-changes. I see bigger issues too; but I'm sniffing the ground first, so I can lay down a well reasoned argument for my complaint with a number of solution options, and hopefully having input from a number of individuals who second my opinion and have made that argument firmer and stronger.

I think it's boring doing things that way, but it is effective. I get no joy out of "boring"; but I have also realised that breaking stuff is boring too. Cleaning up after breaking stuff makes it DOUBLE boring. so I'll take the effective boring over the plain vanilla boring, thanks. And I have also discovered that some of the things I thought about the temple structure are, in fact, false; so I'm glad I didn't make an arse of myself with a full-frontal assault on my arrival.

I hope you don't choose to leave; 'cause I've still to write my bit on "The Second Sex" and I'm looking forward to your views on the topic. I hope you don't get banned; because it'll mean I'll have had to have read something really ugly. Big Hug. I hope your friendship will overcome this misunderstanding.

Kyrin,

One of my personal principles is to separate the behaviours from the person. I find this to be very similar to the direction from TotJO that we discus ideas and not people.

I'm going to break from that momentarily because I want to publicly tell you that I support you and your personal growth in this community. I have had very little direct interaction with you in my time here, because when I read your words I frequently disagree with them. On occasion I have wanted to reach through my screen, grab you by the shoulders and shake some sense into you. However, I (usually) recognise that I am having an emotional response to my interpretation of someone else's words and take time to reflect on my response before I post it. Often, the conversation has moved on by the time I return to it and my thoughts have already been put forth by another or I no longer feel expressing them will be constructive. It is not that I shy from conflict, it is that I avoid conflict for conflict's sake and that seems to me to be at odds with how I often perceive you here.

That said, whilst I disagree for the most part with every opinion I have seen here from you I will 100% support your right to have those opinions. My preference would be to have you use words that I find less confrontational, but that is not within my sphere of influence and I accept that it is you, and you alone, who will choose how you present yourself here.

It seems to me that there are a good many of us hurting in this thread. Hurting because Tom has left. Hurting because old wounds have been reopened by examining the reasons he left. And hurting because we are bearing witness to conflict between friends that (thus far) appears to be self-perpetuating rather than resolving. For my part, I am hurting because I am seeing your name come up in numerous posts and I perceive that as singling you out. You may or may not be 'asking for it' but I can understand if you feel like you have a target on you. I wish we could all be better than that.

I think I have stated before that I am big on personal responsibility. If not, I state it now. I recognise that this statement is projecting my beliefs onto others, but each of us has the ability and the responsibility to make our own choices. If any of us are truly *that* dissatisfied with the current state of affairs our choice is to either take our leave as Tom has done (hopefully with some aplomb) or to remain and accept the current state of affairs (albeit with hope for improvement). To refuse acceptance and refuse to leave is abdicating our responsibility to ourselves to choose our own path.

Again, I hope you can reconcile your views with the other views hold here and choose to remain because, while I don't think conflict is the only way to promote growth, I certainly recognise that it is a way and I am grateful that I can be challenged in a number of ways by your contributions.

Manami wrote:
Kyrin wrote:
"This is a place of conflict by design not through unwanted interaction. This is how the membership grows and learns about themselves." (emphasis mine)

Someone please show me where the TOTJO rules and FAQ says that, or even supports it. Because I apparently missed it, if so, and that would have affected my decision.

Every single thing we do in our lives that is worth doing is a source of conflict. Even the personal interactions here. When we study a lesson or read a book or practice introspection we are in conflict with our own self-ignorance and we are engaging in the conflict of challenging ourselves to grow.




Thanks all for the comments here and the PMs with suggestions and support. I wanted to clarify one thing. Atticus is not the first person to ever hurt me here. I get hurt all the time. I was hurt when I was denied knighthood the first time and I was hurt even more the second time. My mentors have hurt me regularly. Senan does this on a regular basis. When you want to please and impress someone in that position that you look up to, it hurts when you fail in that. The difference is that I not only welcome that but encourage that honesty in them so that I know where I fail and I can make steps to self-reflect and improve. This is how I grow. I don't complain about it or take it personally or consider it a slight against who I am as an overall human being, even if it happens a thousand times. I realize I put myself in that position for a reason and I want that pain. It’s no different than the pain I feel in exercising, I take that pain so that I may grow. It causes me to work to get better!! This is why I struggle and study here, to get better.

Maybe I’m a bit of a problem child, sure I accept that, but I also have a lot of good to offer and I know that as well. People get so focused on the negative they forget to see the positive. I said that just yesterday in another thread. I have always seen this place as an environment where I could work on my faults and build on my strengths with encouragement from others on a similar mission. But if it’s easier to just kick us “problem children” out than to continue to deal with us as we grow then so be it, I’ll go. Will it achieve this mythical peace that Atticus seeks? I doubt it. That’s like asking the world to just stop fighting and simply get along or - bang, to the moon with ya!

In any case, it won’t be my first disappointment here and it sure won’t stop me from my goals. The first time I was denied knighthood I started my own personal path to knighthood in Kamikeedi. I undertook that path with the support of friends here and it is one I continue today as I also work with Senan. But recently I have also restarted that path to TotJO knighthood with Senan because of people like him as well as Atticus and Hatter. People I thought could make real positive change around here. It seems that, with the exception of Senan, who has been a never ending source of support and encouragement for me, for the most part it has become a case of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.

If the establishment here does not want me as a knight that’s fine, just let me know and Ill end that branch of my journey. It won’t stop me from my primary path though. I’m not changing who I am as a core person just to please someone enough for them to give me a shiny tin badge. I know who I am so take me like that or not at all because I won’t get fooled again.

If it hurts you're probably doing it wrong. Have you considered Sithism?

They have the Force, but unlike jedi believe in advancement through emotion, conflict and pain. I'm sure one of their flavors would suit your palate exceedingly well.

Shadow jediism(my kind) is heavily influenced by existentialism, a philosophy which promotes 'authenticity'.

If you do not already know what you 'authentically' are, i suuggest you research it. You are right there is no purpose in pretending to be something that you are not. Totjo is not fooling you. You are fooling yourself.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Every single thing we do in our lives that is worth doing is a source of conflict. Even the personal interactions here. When we study a lesson or read a book or practice introspection we are in conflict with our own self-ignorance and we are engaging in the conflict of challenging ourselves to grow.

Not disputing that. It's why so many of us have shifted from talking about "conflict resolution" to "conflict management" - people recognize that conflict can be a generative source of innovation and growth.

However, in organizations, for conflict to be productive, it requires certain conditions: a structure within the organization (involving both membership and leadership) that is built to manage conflict and see that it is invited in a way that doesn't interfere with the work being done, shared agreements defining language and "rules of engagement" so to speak, and trust built between all levels of the organization. If there are deficiencies in any of those areas, they have to be worked on before the benefits can be realized.

When conflict is cyclic, unstructured, or involves part of the participants making the effort of respectful language and applying empathy while others spurn that, then rather than building the confidence within the organization that increases the benefit of conflict, it has the opposite effect. It becomes an environment that can negatively impact members who aren't at the same level of confidence regarding conflict, and creates an easy feeding ground for those looking to use the "drama" of conflict for their own narcissistic supply. Once that takes root it's a never-ending, exhausting loop that's very hard to get rid of, and any organization concerned about their membership is going to create some safeguards against it.

In any case, I respect the efforts currently underway to improve the arena here and look to the materials that TOTJO has laid out for guidance. Do what you will, and may the Force be with you.

ren wrote: If you do not already know what you 'authentically' are, i suuggest you research it. You are right there is no purpose in pretending to be something that you are not. Totjo is not fooling you. You are fooling yourself.

Thanks but I know exactly who and what I am. I don't have to research my authentic self. I've spent a lifetime researching that and rest assured that I know exactly why I am here and precisely what I am doing and why without a doubt.

ren wrote: If it hurts you're probably doing it wrong. Have you considered Sithism?

Climbing a mountain hurts too, but one wouldn't consider they're doing it wrong because of that. Working out hurts, too. Jediism, when done excellently, sucks for the individual. That is the price of growth. And it's one pain that is worthwhile.

Kyrin...are you saying peace is a lie?