Our eyes Deceive us of the truth of reality

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6 years 5 months ago #304200 by Eleven
I was listening to Watt's Lecture on Perception and Myth recently and I was thinking alot about it this morning. I am not quoting him and you can correct me if you want. But, he mentioned, "Try to explain to a blind person what a Rainbow...do they know what the colors red, green, blue are? no...because they never seen it so therefore it doesn't exist." Take it a step further, "The three elements a rainbow needs to exists water, light and an on looker, if you take away any of these three elements it doesn't exist."

Now, again I may be misquoting that I wonder to myself how often have I believed only what my senses perceived? Chirrut Imwe from Rogue One was blind and yet he saw I believe through The Force. Now, you could say, "Well, now we don't know if he was Force Sensitive or not but, that is a fictional character and it doesn't matter in this subject." But, it does why wouldn't it? Either he was Force sensitive or he had a higher sense in his other senses however you want to believe it...I believe he was the element of the Jedi in the film to make it more starwars other than just Darth Vader at the end.

Moving on, my thoughts are is what we have always known really all there is? I often seek this answer and I was wondering what everyone elses thoughts are. And it can be on anything or to debate my stand if you would like. I hope what I am trying to say makes sense.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tl1zqH4lsSmKOyCLU9sdOSAUig7Q38QW4okOwSz2V4c/edit
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6 years 5 months ago #304201 by Adder
I'm pretty sure I've read before that the information from the sensory systems are received by the subconscious first, and then pruned to some extent before emerging in the conscious awareness.

Such that it might be that process itself, along with autonomous bodily functions, which creates the purpose of defining a conscious and subconscious as distinct phases in the brain and nervous systems function!

So then it means we're born with filters perhaps!! Spirituality might be considered engineering of those filters :D

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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6 years 5 months ago #304203 by MadHatter
The problem I have with thought experiments or philosophies like this is that the examples given are always flawed. The rainbow example given is one such flawed concept. Just because you do not see or understand something does not mean it does not exist. A blind man might have never seen a cliff but he would find out to his great harm that they most assuredly exist if he walked off one. Most people have never seen radiation some might not have even heard of the concept but expose yourself to it and you will see how real it is. Our limited knowledge and sensory limits do not stop reality so no we cant depend on them perfectly BUT that does not mean that such things do not exist.

Further yes there can be more then we perceive to the universe out there. But deny your sense of sight and perception of balance to walk off a cliff edge and the results will not be in your favor. It's like the whole there is no way to prove the chair is there argument. Yea sure maybe but if I toss it at you ya better duck and we most likely know that you will. These thought experiments are great to widen the gaze and mind. But take them as a way to live and its also a great step to earning a Darwin award.

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Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
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6 years 5 months ago - 6 years 5 months ago #304204 by
I may be crossing my references, but I feel like Matthew Bortolin spoke of something similar in relation to rainbows in his book "The Dharma of Star Wars".

In that discussion, he approached it from more of the life, death, rebirth cycle of the Force, with a rainbow as an example. The conditions necessary for a rainbow to appear being moisture in the air, light, and an observer. When these three conditions are met, the rainbow lives. When you remove one of these conditions, the rainbow dies. Yet when these conditions are present again, the rainbow is reborn.

As MadHatter suggests, just because we may not accept reality, this does not discount whether it is reality or not. Whether the rainbow question is an exercise of "reality" or not depends wholly on our definition of what constitutes reality. Under the same premise that the lack of an observer, or in the perspective of a blind person never having been the observer of the rainbow, thus the rainbow not really existing, we could equally say that any certain individual anywhere in the world whom I have never met, would thusly also not exist, in reality. Perhaps this is so, in MY reality. But that adds a new condition to what we define reality under. Is it a state of existence that continues with or without us? Is my reality different from your reality? Or a rock's reality? Is one more "real" than another? Or are they all equally real without regard to whether we accept them to be or not?

Where I am more interested in your thoughts as I understand it, Sven One, is the application of our senses upon determining what reality is.

If a tree falls in the forest, but no one hears it, does it make a sound?
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
There is a chrysanthemum growing in the courtyard.

Krishnamurti took this area of thought to a more complete level (though I cannot remember if it was in the video available through the IP, or in a book of his speeches I read a few weeks ago "Think on These Things" <<RECOMMENDED). Either way. Krishnamurti discussed how we tend to rely upon our most dominant and appropriate sense to experience various things. With a rainbow, we rely on our vision. A warm blanket on a cold night, our sense of touch or feeling. At a piano recital, our hearing. And so on. Rather than limit our experience and appreciation for the world, for reality, by only utilizing one or two senses at a time, Krishnamurti challenges us to engage ALL of our sense in ALL of our interactions. This, he said, was focus.

Can we feel a rainbow, taste it, hear it, and smell it...or do we only see it? Have you tried to use your other sense? Can you? Does our inability to do so make it less real? Or are we just not noticing what is real and what is not real by lacking focus?

I have thought of this challenge and only come up with one experience where I can attune all my sense to it. I don't always, but when I do take notice, it is obvious and easy to experience by engaging all of my sense (perhaps even the sixth one if you think about it). Rather than spoil it, I would be interested if anyone else can come up with an example of something, anything, where we can experience it with all of our sense simultaneously. It is quite lovely when you do...and if it comes down to it, I'll share the one thing I have found it possible with later (if anyone is interested).

Good post brother. Very enjoyable to consider.
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6 years 5 months ago #304206 by Eleven
Wonderful all of you and thank you. I believe Sam your referencing Watts with the Rainbow part however, I am uncertain whether or not someone else has made such a reference I know when I heard it for the first time I never thought of it in that dimension before in my life and found it to have truth to it. Though, as has been said by Hatter it's also flawed because of his above explanations and others.

Chirrut Imwe, toward the end of the movie while pushing the switch was shortly after killed and he wasn't able to sense that so you could say a storm trooper threw a chair at him and he didn't duck not knowing it was coming but, it was true the bomb existed and it landed near or on Chirrut and killed him so therefore it existed even though he wasn't able to sense it.

I guess my best thoughts are is senses guys...I think...thoughts?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tl1zqH4lsSmKOyCLU9sdOSAUig7Q38QW4okOwSz2V4c/edit

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6 years 5 months ago #304208 by Carlos.Martinez3
We will never know any possibility till we try. Often times beliefs ... ours and others keep things from being sought. As human beings we have lost many things over time and over conflict of interests. This is never to say we can not find them again or find similarities in other forms. The human element is fantastic. Jedi ism says seek... syncretism says you CAN try without reserve or attachment. The choice is ours to try or not try , to think or not think. Those simple two directions, off and on ( binary really if u think as that) can create unfathomable possibilities. Fiction or not there is always a place most ideas come from.
Silence is often said to be one of the greatest teachers available to ALL man kind. How we use it ... it's our practice. The outcome, a result of our practice. Hence , we are not alike yet, we are.

Personally my senses are tuned to difrent things , if it helps ...like a guitar , in drop d or open g or even just normal play. It can be played with just three or even I've played with just two strings. In a masters hand the Force or the ability can be difrent than most. You are the master of your own wield. Can You tune your senses , yes. Can u re tune them , yes, can u un tune , duh , can u master them ... as many times as you like! Find examples , real life examples. I met a guy who plays guitar with his feet. I know a blind man who plays the same. The possibilities are endless! Which do you choose to try? That's a good one now! Be well and may the Force we share continue to find you my friend! I still believe in you as we walk this life next To or crossing each other brother! Happy seeking !

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Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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6 years 5 months ago #304241 by Eleven
I agree with you all. Carlos, I think you might have been the closest to what I was trying to articulate. I often find myself meeting amazing people who seem to have very strong abilitit's you mentioned the guitar for example. I am not coordinated well enough to learn how to play guitar...but, could I? With practice and frustration yes it's possible.

I have been to the Astral Planes before seen what it's like it's amazing. I really do want to reach out to what modern science says is impossible and make possible. I believe we have lost things that were originally possible but, due to modern convenience we've lost a part of ourselves.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tl1zqH4lsSmKOyCLU9sdOSAUig7Q38QW4okOwSz2V4c/edit
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6 years 5 months ago #304248 by Carlos.Martinez3
It is said , now is always the greatest time to start something ! Be well , take breaks and log things aka journal things , I LOVE reading my old entries , real ones I find and I learn a lot from them! Happy seeking , seek happy "knights" for happy days!
All my heart friend !

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6 years 5 months ago #304261 by

Sven One wrote: I really do want to reach out to what modern science says is impossible...


Seriously? Science has NEVER said anything is impossible.

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6 years 5 months ago #304265 by Carlos.Martinez3
Sven
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/kjournals/109381-carlos-meditation-journal?start=100#303794


Check that lil video out n tell me what u see ... I put it there for me to think about .

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
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Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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