Las Vegas...

Trazyn4211 wrote: Again, you really dont want to argue that its just as easy to get a gun as it is a car, you will not win that argument, the simple fact you have a waiting period and a background check for a gun make it significantly harder.

You must not be in Virginia cause here it is so easy to get a gun. You can, literally, get a gun here quicker than a car (especially if you have no offensive history on your record). I spent more time trying to get a bank quote for my CR-V than I spent when my brother got his handgun, no exaggerating. There is no waiting period like in some states.

I don't know what the law is in Vegas and in other states, but I just needed to point out that your argument there is wrong. Here, to my understanding, there is an eligibility test but that's all just part of the background check. Also, we are open carry and DO need a permit to conceal (welcome to the south).

VA State Police on Buying weapons:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

Eligibility test:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

From one of the local well known stores that sells firearms:
http://www.virginiaarms.com/faq

I don't know much about firearms and all that, but I just wanted to throw this out there because you sounded sure but are actually wrong. I just think that I should have thrown in my two cents since what you said was broad and does not apply to everywhere in the country.

vladucard wrote:

Trazyn4211 wrote: Again, you really dont want to argue that its just as easy to get a gun as it is a car, you will not win that argument, the simple fact you have a waiting period and a background check for a gun make it significantly harder.

You must not be in Virginia cause here it is so easy to get a gun. You can, literally, get a gun here quicker than a car (especially if you have no offensive history on your record). I spent more time trying to get a bank quote for my CR-V than I spent when my brother got his handgun, no exaggerating. There is no waiting period like in some states.

I don't know what the law is in Vegas and in other states, but I just needed to point out that your argument there is wrong. Here, to my understanding, there is an eligibility test but that's all just part of the background check. Also, we are open carry and DO need a permit to conceal (welcome to the south).

VA State Police on Buying weapons:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

Eligibility test:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

From one of the local well known stores that sells firearms:
http://www.virginiaarms.com/faq

I don't know much about firearms and all that, but I just wanted to throw this out there because you sounded sure but are actually wrong. I just think that I should have thrown in my two cents since what you said was broad and does not apply to everywhere in the country.

I feel a need to point out.....

Comparing the purchase of a gun to a car is vastly.........ridiculous.

Of course it takes less time to purchase a gun than a car. When you purchase a gun, you have the money in hand or account at the point of purchase. Your not asking to take out a loan or put a substantial monthly/yearly payment on the weapon. Your buying it off shelf right then and there.

With a car at a dealership you are making a commitment that requires a larger sum of money that you don't have on hand but promise to pay over time.

So yes.

It takes longer to purchase a car. Because they are checking to make sure you won't screw them over in a year....or two. Because they are checking to make sure you are going to hold a job and make your payments. Because they loose a crap ton of interest if you don't follow through on your agreements.

The only fall out the company of a gun seller has is.......oh wait. There is none (If sold legally/properly)

So....Yea.....This is not a viable argument.

Purchasing a gun is difficult for what it is you are buying. My husband just recently purchased a Taurus Pistol and it took us a hour and half of sitting around to get all paperwork registered, checked, and approved. I plan on getting a Evo Carbine soon...and if I want to modify it the way I wish...It will cost me $200 extra and a booklet load of paperwork to fill out.

If I were to do anything to process....it would be to simply check medical mental records.......which wont happen because that sort of thing is protected under patient privacy rights

Sooooooo yea....Anyways....just my random thoughts for now.

Trazyn4211 wrote: Again, you really dont want to argue that its just as easy to get a gun as it is a car, you will not win that argument, the simple fact you have a waiting period and a background check for a gun make it significantly harder, you cannot be denied a car if you are a felon, in most states you dont have to prove you can use it safely like you do a gun. You arent going to get anywhere arguing that just stop.

You can be denied a license for a number or reasons including a DUI conviction, and you have to pass a test proving you can safely drive a car and you know the rules of the road before you can get said license. The written test at the DMV required more study than it did for me to buy a shotgun. Heck, they even tested my vision which is more than they did before giving me a gun. I realize I'm not going to get anywhere arguing with you, but that doesn't make me wrong.

Trisskar wrote:

vladucard wrote:

Trazyn4211 wrote: Again, you really dont want to argue that its just as easy to get a gun as it is a car, you will not win that argument, the simple fact you have a waiting period and a background check for a gun make it significantly harder.

You must not be in Virginia cause here it is so easy to get a gun. You can, literally, get a gun here quicker than a car (especially if you have no offensive history on your record). I spent more time trying to get a bank quote for my CR-V than I spent when my brother got his handgun, no exaggerating. There is no waiting period like in some states.

I don't know what the law is in Vegas and in other states, but I just needed to point out that your argument there is wrong. Here, to my understanding, there is an eligibility test but that's all just part of the background check. Also, we are open carry and DO need a permit to conceal (welcome to the south).

VA State Police on Buying weapons:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

Eligibility test:
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_PurchaseEligibility.shtm

From one of the local well known stores that sells firearms:
http://www.virginiaarms.com/faq

I don't know much about firearms and all that, but I just wanted to throw this out there because you sounded sure but are actually wrong. I just think that I should have thrown in my two cents since what you said was broad and does not apply to everywhere in the country.

I feel a need to point out.....

Comparing the purchase of a gun to a car is vastly.........ridiculous.

Of course it takes less time to purchase a gun than a car. When you purchase a gun, you have the money in hand or account at the point of purchase. Your not asking to take out a loan or put a substantial monthly/yearly payment on the weapon. Your buying it off shelf right then and there.

With a car at a dealership you are making a commitment that requires a larger sum of money that you don't have on hand but promise to pay over time.

So yes.

It takes longer to purchase a car. Because they are checking to make sure you won't screw them over in a year....or two. Because they are checking to make sure you are going to hold a job and make your payments. Because they loose a crap ton of interest if you don't follow through on your agreements.

The only fall out the company of a gun seller has is.......oh wait. There is none (If sold legally/properly)

So....Yea.....This is not a viable argument.

Purchasing a gun is difficult for what it is you are buying. My husband just recently purchased a Taurus Pistol and it took us a hour and half of sitting around to get all paperwork registered, checked, and approved. I plan on getting a Evo Carbine soon...and if I want to modify it the way I wish...It will cost me $200 extra and a booklet load of paperwork to fill out.

If I were to do anything to process....it would be to simply check medical mental records.......which wont happen because that sort of thing is protected under patient privacy rights

Sooooooo yea....Anyways....just my random thoughts for now.

I bought my current truck with cash from a private seller. No financing. I still had to go to the DMV, transfer the registration and pay the registration fee for new tags $200, and show proof of insurance. If you have ever been to a DMV in California, you would know that this process also took me almost two hours.

It is very telling that this has suddenly become the argument people are focusing on when it was merely meant to point out that we regulate vehicles as much as we do guns, and yet vehicles have a much wider range of uses. The point is, we can make EVERY potentially dangerous item safer if we do a better job of regulating the purchase and use of said items. We regulate the sale of fertilizer after we learned that it can be used as an explosive. We take off our shoes before getting on a plane because we've learned that bombs can be hidden in shoes. In my state, we require people under 18 to wear helmets when riding a bicycle. Seat belt laws and DUI laws make driving safer. Gun laws can and do make people safer too. The goal is responsible purchase, ownership, and use of said items. Placing barriers to prevent illegal possession and use of any dangerous item just makes sense. People with ill intent will always find ways around the law, but that shouldn't mean we should just give up on the goal of making everyone safer.

As jedi, some here should be more insightful and far-seeing..

To those who call for more regulation. Why is your answer more control? As if you don't know how one can create crisis in order to further their agenda.. or use a random event in the same way.. always for more power.

Also, comparing to vehicle regulation makes you miss that your means of transportation shouldn't be controlled either. As that determines how you eat, work, or resist unlawful governance.

Now, do you think the corporate media is highlighting "guns" as the CAUSE of violence for no reason? Even though tools don't inspire violence? Why would they encourage such an absurdity? There are a number of reasons. However the point would be more than likely be to make control easier..

China is ready to receive equity in return for the debt we owe. Which means land, resources, businesses, etc. Which folks would resist this "selling out". They have a vested interest in making you easier to control.

The point of civilization is not to make us safer. It's to make us stronger, smarter, more prosperous, and more connected. Civilization should create civilized self-governing individuals..

Depending on a ruler for complete safety and well being is weak and ill-advised.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The point of civilization is not to make us safer. It's to make us stronger, smarter, more prosperous, and more connected. Civilization should create civilized self-governing individuals.

Difficult to be stronger, smarter, more prosperous and more connected, if you are getting shot in the head because some mentally-ill person had easy access to a weapon.

Manu wrote:

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The point of civilization is not to make us safer. It's to make us stronger, smarter, more prosperous, and more connected. Civilization should create civilized self-governing individuals.

Difficult to be stronger, smarter, more prosperous and more connected, if you are getting shot in the head because some mentally-ill person had easy access to a weapon.

None of that excuses becoming a tyrant oppressing folks rights.

Most of these "mentally ill" that become violent are usually the result of some sort ptsd. Which isn't just a military thing. It's a problem of an unhealthy culture. Not of exercising our natural rights in a peaceful way. Possession isn't a violent act.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The point of civilization is not to make us safer. It's to make us stronger, smarter, more prosperous, and more connected. Civilization should create civilized self-governing individuals..

Depending on a ruler for complete safety and well being is weak and ill-advised.

You should probably read the earlier posts in this thread to get an idea of what the real argument is here. As a society, it is absolutely part of our duty to make people safer. That's why we have laws and law enforcement, the FDA, the CDC, the EPA, the TSA, etc. They all have a hand in extending life expectancy and preventing unnecessary deaths.The most common argument for responsible ownership of a semi-automatic weapon is self defense. People wouldn't need an AR-15 for self defense if they felt safe. Allowing access to this weapon in particular does not make anyone stronger, smarter, or more prosperous, unless they are using it to steal from others or assert dominance over others, which goes directly against what you claim we should be doing.

Regulating medications, vehicles, food, and various other consumer products and requiring that citizens participate in society responsibly is not tyranny. It is a shared agreement necessary for democracy. The result has been safer food, less disease, and fewer automobile related deaths per capita. The failures have been in the drug and weapon industries that have lobbied hard to prevent regulation and are thus able to continue lining their pockets while people use their products irresponsibly at the cost of human lives. Your "right" to own a gun is granted by the very government that many gun owners claim to be the tyrants, when it is actually irresponsible, criminal, or mentally ill citizens with guns that are creating the havoc. If anything, it is a lack of action that our government in the U.S. is guilty of.

Oh, we've also already had the argument about "tools". A hammer is a tool. A pencil is a tool. A moving truck is a tool. All can be used to commit murder, but that is not their intended use. They do not inspire violence. A gun is a weapon specifically designed for violent acts. An AR-15 has only one intended use, and it is a violent one. It is certainly meant to inspire violence, as that is it's one true purpose. Guess what gun lobbies and manufacturers use this violence for? To create fear. Fear makes people want to buy more guns to protect themselves. The NRA and manufacturers spend millions on campaigns and lobbying to make sure people can get those guns and make them rich in the process. Now who is really being controlled?

Your Libertarian leanings only work when people are responsible, and as has been proven time and time again in churches, schools, workplaces, nightclubs and concerts, there are people who obviously cannot be trusted with semi-automatic rifles, and the rest of you with these guns have been powerless to stop them from committing mass murder. The rest of us shouldn't have to wait for a gun toting hero to save us from being murdered at church by a gun toting lunatic. Instead, how about we logically discuss ways to keep the lunatics from having AR-15's.

Senan wrote:

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The point of civilization is not to make us safer. It's to make us stronger, smarter, more prosperous, and more connected. Civilization should create civilized self-governing individuals..

Depending on a ruler for complete safety and well being is weak and ill-advised.

You should probably read the earlier posts in this thread to get an idea of what the real argument is here. As a society, it is absolutely part of our duty to make people safer. That's why we have laws and law enforcement, the FDA, the CDC, the EPA, the TSA, etc. They all have a hand in extending life expectancy and preventing unnecessary deaths.The most common argument for responsible ownership of a semi-automatic weapon is self defense. People wouldn't need an AR-15 for self defense if they felt safe. Allowing access to this weapon in particular does not make anyone stronger, smarter, or more prosperous, unless they are using it to steal from others or assert dominance over others, which goes directly against what you claim we should be doing.

Regulating medications, vehicles, food, and various other consumer products and requiring that citizens participate in society responsibly is not tyranny. It is a shared agreement necessary for democracy. The result has been safer food, less disease, and fewer automobile related deaths per capita. The failures have been in the drug and weapon industries that have lobbied hard to prevent regulation and are thus able to continue lining their pockets while people use their products irresponsibly at the cost of human lives. Your "right" to own a gun is granted by the very government that many gun owners claim to be the tyrants, when it is actually irresponsible, criminal, or mentally ill citizens with guns that are creating the havoc. If anything, it is a lack of action that our government in the U.S. is guilty of.

Oh, we've also already had the argument about "tools". A hammer is a tool. A pencil is a tool. A moving truck is a tool. All can be used to commit murder, but that is not their intended use. They do not inspire violence. A gun is a weapon specifically designed for violent acts. An AR-15 has only one intended use, and it is a violent one. It is certainly meant to inspire violence, as that is it's one true purpose. Guess what gun lobbies and manufacturers use this violence for? To create fear. Fear makes people want to buy more guns to protect themselves. The NRA and manufacturers spend millions on campaigns and lobbying to make sure people can get those guns and make them rich in the process. Now who is really being controlled?

Your Libertarian leanings only work when people are responsible, and as has been proven time and time again in churches, schools, workplaces, nightclubs and concerts, there are people who obviously cannot be trusted with semi-automatic rifles, and the rest of you with these guns have been powerless to stop them from committing mass murder. The rest of us shouldn't have to wait for a gun toting hero to save us from being murdered at church by a gun toting lunatic. Instead, how about we logically discuss ways to keep the lunatics from having AR-15's.

To sum up your argument...

First of all, government doesn't grant rights. The Force did when I evolved from an irrational animal into a being capable of rational thought.. Nature itself granted me rights by the very nature of my humanity. A gun is a tool of defense. You see as the elite want you to see. It's sole purpose is not indiscriminate murder. Neither does it inspire it. That's comes from the evil in ones heart.

Second of all, Libertarian? I don't do labels. I just deal with what's right. Liberty is what's right. That is the whole reason these States even exist. Liberty is the natural state of a human being. It takes responsibility and reason to maintain a Free society. Which most people are to an extent. The founders knew that, which is why it's not encouraged by TPTB. The irresponsibility of the few doesn't excuse the oppression of the majority. Society can regulate most of its own affairs. If those habits are taught. They don't teach responsible driving, responsible shopping, or even how law functions. How many people actually read and research what's in their food? How many times have the FDA approved dangerous items just for the money? How many terrorists have the TSA caught? For every 10 accidents recorded, only 3 involve unlicensed drivers. The rest were licensed. How is it right to need permission to use what you own? There can be usage rules. Not prohibitions of usage. That is a function of property rights..

Which brings me to my point. Knowledge begets knowledge. Ignorance, ignorance, and bad habits. The way society makes you stronger and prosperous is by teaching you to be a reasoning, responsible human being. Not by coddling us. Freedom should NEVER be exchanged for safety. You will end up with neither. When you call police, agents of the government, to these situations. Aren't you waiting for a "good guy with a gun"? If you eliminate the right for the civilian who will have it? Government.. and under the present circumstances. I'd rather not be dependent on the elite for my well being.. Peace will not be achieved through control.. Only suffering.. because your fear of freedom will lead you right into the arms of the worst tyrant this world has yet to see..