Inconsistencies, Integrity, Misconceptions; Area's that need addressed

A tagging feature? You want to give Ren more work? :woohoo: :whistle:

Look, this had 2 outcomes I was hoping for, the first was to expose the inconsistency and to some degree the disregard. It has been brought up before, I've brought it up before, how one knight can talk about how the doctrine is very important and following it very important in one thread, and another can talk about how it's more of a general guide line and only a starting point, that its used as a point of reference only and what should be followed is up to an individual personal choice. That thread existed by me way back when, and nothing really came of it at all.

To a newer member if they view one side of that thread the doctrine is the "law" to speak as I did way back in the day of starting out and then come across later another thread where we talk about how its nothing more then a general guide line that is not only beyond confusing but its almost in a sense disingenuous on its own. That leaves me or a newer member to have a sense of lack of trust in not only the members here because they can apparently follow their own thing but in the program itself.

TOTJO is very much a melting pot just like any other society for the most part and we all have varying views but we do not do a very good job of coming down a to a common denominator even here, let alone with the rest of the Jediism communities out there. It's very confusing to see threads and views that are one sided one day and the other sided the other. This has all been brought up before...and seemingly ignored overall as nothing was really addressed or changed. I've said it before and I'll continue saying it for a long time, some lessons can't be taught, they have to be experienced. So now everyone here and there has experienced what it can be to be on one thing and then completely on the other in a different thread. You now know how that feels and the frustrations behind it.

Guinea pig mentality aside, I've had to point out a few times even in my job here to a director who went from working calls on a service to just handling administrative tasks and public relations. You spend enough time doing that and still not be in the field, still not spend time seeing things from the perspective of your employees or in this case your members and you loose touch, a disconnect from reality, and all your actions going forward are as such. The decision making for this scenario I dealt with here went from doing whats best for patient care to doing whats best to look good and compromising the other. So yeah I forced the director to work a few shifts in the field and swapped roles, and by forced I mean I am a part owner of the service so It's not like I didn't have the authority or anything, and the realization kicked in after a single weekend out on the track that we were not making decisions for the best interest of the patients anymore. Things got corrected, but it was something i've argued multiple times, but like some realities in our world some things have to be witnessed or experienced before you figure them out.

There are similarities here, we have such a high turn over rate on new registered members and not really anyone paying attention as to why? We had this big thing last year about a lack of definition, directly related to this, and some of it was simply coming down to a more descriptive path and lesson plan but some of it was still vague and unknown. I believe it has come down to us individually posting or lack of posting.

Now I'm not sure where the whole required to post insisting on posting demanding posting thoughts came from. This feature I mention is a prominent feature in a lot of forums because it works. There are options in profile settings that come with these plugin/feature that allows you to be exempt from it if you choose, stuff like that has long been figured out already by a few million other people who have used it. The whole point is to attract your attention to somewhere you are requested, not mandatory but a hey if you can, come look here and see if you can respond. If that is too much for you then I ask why are you here? If your only goal here is for your own purposes for your own growth then why Pick Jedi which is fundamentally also about providing and caring for others as well.

As far as the @clergy, I could see that being nice too, the whole reason pm's is annoying is ok there is how many people on the clergy? and which ones are around at 9pm cst on a thursday night....ok well I'll spend 10 minutes writing pm's to everyone, then wait for one to respond, then when I get a response spend another 10 writing follow up pm's to the ones I sent pm's to, to let them know its taken care of, when I could just spend 15 seconds writing a couple @names or @clergy instead. We have already seen one response in here about not having the time to do things, I just took 20 minutes out of the equation in that example.


The other outcome was to attempt to identify why we get so butthurt:

9. Jedi have integrity. We are authentic to what we believe and are open, honest and true to our purpose and our minds. We remove all masks to reveal ourselves as courageous and noble of heart. We do not hide from fear of damage to our image because we know that our image cannot be blemished from the words and actions of others.

Question peoples abilities here and what is the first response, see the replies in some of these threads. I haven't fully figured it out yet but I'm starting to see a pattern in which those who would be viewed as not necessarily mastering but being well experienced in all of the teachings of the doctrine and what we believe in being Jedi in the real world, aren't really following that path as well as either they used to or just in general. I have been guilty of it from time to time I'm not infallible by any means. There are quite a few threads where we get defensive very quickly for almost no effort at all and it really bothers me as to why. The other piece to this puzzle was the big push for getting some info from anyone willing about what they do outside the forums that for their communities. For their real world environments. It was not only shocking how few responses I got, out of the 7 articles I have, 3 were written by me, 2 by someone else, so I really only have 4 people involved. If I tried to push even for a sentence or two from people I thought would be good candidates I got a huge amount of resistance and also a few who willingly said "they don't have anything to write about". Now that can be for many valid reasons, time, money, etc. What looks the worst about it is when you have a community with how many active Jedi here? and the most I can get is 3 others who can come up with anything?

Obviously I don't know what goes on in personal lives and it's really not my place to investigate or hold a standard or any of that ridiculousness I'm sure someone will reply about. But If I look at that quote, if I'm to come into this community, and read that...take it to heart...apply it to my life, live in that experience every day to the fullest extent of myself. Believe in it, and then turn around and see those who taught this to me, those whom I hold in the highest respects for figuring this part of the path out before I was around to walk it, not actually follow it. How would you feel in that situation?

I'm not the only one that has noticed, nor even acknowledged privately, that there are people here, in this forum who use the title of Jedi all the time, but do not really follow or commit to the teachings at all. Yet we refuse to really act on any of it again because we have such an inconsistency when it comes to how important the doctrine really is or how we choose to follow it or anything. So we let it grow and fester and ignore it. The people who are here or have been around long enough know who these people are, they become fairly obvious after awhile, but when newer members come in and look at posts from a "member" or whatever rank they don't know that and what kind of message to they get out of it when they see some of the content that gets posted?

This was about experiencing the frustrations from a new perspective you haven't been able to see from where we have been sitting in our comfortable seats that we have gotten our butts molded into.

There was a comment in skype about whether I'm happy about loosing the respect of my peers. I will say the following along that line. In EMS, people say to me I must enjoy it to work in it. That I must have to enjoy doing this type of work in order to work in the field. While there are some fun aspects to it, its actually quite a miserable job. The hours suck, the lack of sleep sucks, the doing CPR on a 36 year old mother of two while the kids are 15 feet away crying and screaming in the next room while your also on the phone with a dr at the hospital giving a report and requesting permission to cease resuscitation, as you have done everything and there is no improvement or signs of possible recovery, it sucks. As I have quoted in my signature "As a Jedi, I do, Because It's Needed, Because I Can, Because Others Can Not". Working as an EMT-I and soon to be paramedic its something I'm very good at. Paying attention to the details, looking at all the clues, observing the big picture, but also the considerable time I've spent just studying people in general over the years. I got into this not because I wanted to do all the crappy parts but because I can do everything I can and do a good job of doing it for the best parts, and at least put every effort possible into doing it. That often means I get stepped on, puked on, attacked some days, under the threat of being shot by angry people targeting emergency responders all alike. Some times that means I get blamed for peoples deaths even when unfounded, but everything is necessary for trying to do what I can to help those in need.

I see this as nothing more then another stepping stone along the path that the temple takes in its own journey overall. If I need to be stepped on for people to continue on, then that is what I will do. Not to be a martyr, but just to be what is needed to keep going forward. I've already contemplated leaving the temple for awhile, not because of these recent events but for the sake of purpose of just spending time being a Jedi in the real world, actually going out and doing it and living it each day. I think there are members here who spend too much time here, too much time being internet Jedi and not real life Jedi, thought I can't prove that it is visible in how I see some of the posting done. The fact that we don't seem to want to catch each other on that bothers me a little as well.

@Proteus I think it was you that came up in one of those threads and said something along the lines of, so if I see you jump out of line, being a part of the seminary or clergy or whatever and being apart of managing our spiritual well being, you want me to go approach you and your teaching master and schedule a time to sit down and talk and cover all this? or something along those lines, and you mentioned it out of a stance of so you want us to go out of the way every time you step out of line like it was a abnormal thing and I think my response was absolutely. I don't know anymore why some of you come to this temple but I came here to grow as a person, to grow spiritually in a way I never have, to better myself so that I can be there to better others. To take care of those who can't take care of themselves. To help myself so that I can in turn help others, so that they can in turn help others and so on. I have come a long way in that regard.

As I talked with Loudzoo recently about how I carried myself on a day two years ago when I ran 18 calls in one day compared to how I carry myself a week or so ago when I had 16, when we normally run only 3-4, was very different. Was noticed not only by me but the people around me. In order to reach that state 3 things had to happen. First being I had to tell people to jump on me if I was out of line, the 2nd being I had to ignore a lot of posts here at the temple, and spend most of my time in self development of the teachings rather then reading what others, there were too many one sided discussions that went off their own that just dumbfounded me that members here acting in such a way. The third was to actually spend time in the real world applying these teachings to everyday life.

I feel what I did was necessary in my perspective, your not probably going to understand that, arguably your not supposed to. What you need to do going forward is decide whether you want to ignore this bit of info out of spite, or look at it with an open mind and discuss it. That's always been your choice, no one here has made any choices for you.

16. Jedi make a commitment to their cause and to humanity. Our ideals, philosophies, and practices define the belief of Jediism and we take action on this path for self-improvement and to help others. We are both the witnesses and protectors of the Jedi way by the practice of our convictions.

10. Jedi serve in many ways. Each action performed, no matter the scale, influences the world. With this in mind Jedi perform each action with peace, caring, love, compassion and humility. So it is that each Jedi improves the world with each deed they perform

You can put all the bells and whistles on this Ferrari. It doesn't matter if the person in it won't drive.

basically it looks like youre making another attempt at telling the rest of the community that they need to be doing Jedi the way you think Jedi ought to be done, this time youve intorduced the idea of tags (which i acknowledge might be a good idea itself)

what exactly do you think should happen? should the Temple ask you to be the judge of whose posts are consistent with the doctrine and whose voice is therefore worthy to speak?
what should be done ot those with whom you disapprove? should they be banned? silenced by the moderators? socially shunned?
is your interpretation of the doctrine the supreme interpretation, to which we all should defer?

i think youre coming from a good place, partly anyway, and i also have a habit of telling people they should do things the way i think they ought to be done, so i can understand, to a degree

you believe that the community could be improved if it were to change in certain ways. i dont think that you are correct about that; i think more restrictiveness and more moderation would be a detriment to the exchange of ideas and perspectives

its tough to accept the fact that we are not in control of anyone except ourselves, ( and even that has very definite limits lol) but at the end of the day, that is the reality of it

there isnt an othodoxy police force to clamp down on divergence of opinions here, and it would be cool if youd realize that this is to your benefit as well. if there were such a force, you might eventually find that it did not share your interpretation of things either, and demanded your silence as well

if you like being allowed the power to to use your own voice, then you should respect that others are allowed to use theirs

you are not the judge of what it means to be a Jedi

i respect your desire to improve things, i disagree with your conclusions about the need for the improvement and your methodolgy
peace

I think there are members here who spend too much time here, too much time being internet Jedi and not real life Jedi, thought I can't prove that it is visible in how I see some of the posting done. The fact that we don't seem to want to catch each other on that bothers me a little as well.

I agree and admit that we should encourage off line Jedi behaviour and i for one am very willing to make people see that off line Jedi is much needed , who we are when noboy is around is who we really are ( borrowed fron Liz sig ) but this is a very heavy and dangerous accusation and assumption , and it demeans people who are not able to be the great Jedi in the real world that you want them to be , in other words , because people are online a lot does not mean that they dont Jedi at all or very little , furthermore , some have to be online more because , either they have not graspt the message of us , or have role here that requires more online presence. There is online guidance and counselling going on here that is as "real life" Jedi as can be.

MartaLina wrote:

I think there are members here who spend too much time here, too much time being internet Jedi and not real life Jedi, thought I can't prove that it is visible in how I see some of the posting done. The fact that we don't seem to want to catch each other on that bothers me a little as well.

I agree and admit that we should encourage off line Jedi behaviour and i for one am very willing to make people see that off line Jedi is much needed , who we are when noboy is around is who we really are ( borrowed fron Liz sig ) but this is a very heavy and dangerous accusation and assumption , and it demeans people who are not able to be the great Jedi in the real world that you want them to be , in other words , because people are online a lot does not mean that they dont Jedi at all or very little , furthermore , some have to be online more because , either they have not graspt the message of us , or have role here that requires more online presence. There is online guidance and counselling going on here that is as "real life" Jedi as can be.

And who exactly is the better judge of people who "Spend to much time here"

How much exactly is too much?

I am a stay at home mom with no car or mode of transportation. There is only so many ways to clean, tidy, dress, teach and tend to house and kids. I have no friends (and not for lack of trying) and I have no school (thanks to history) and the list goes on.

Does that mean i am a "Keyboard Jedi?" Do i not have a colorful enough life for you?

We should be careful how we judge others based on their activity on an internet forum. Being a Jedi offline and doing things in real life is indeed an important thing. But to claim their time on a forum = lazy/non Jedi is just rude and inconsiderate.

Triss says

We should be careful how we judge others based on their activity on an internet forum. Being a Jedi offline and doing things in real life is indeed an important thing. But to claim their time on a forum = lazy/non Jedi is just rude and inconsiderate.

This ^ if i have not been clear enough , this is what i mean

also, the "are you jedi enough in real life?" thread that you made was obviously a trap, just as your more
recent thread was a trap, and thats why no one responded to it

you were coming from a place of judging who lives up to your standards and gathering ammunition against those who dont

the only explanation that i have for you is that you are only repsonsible for your own time and your own life style choices.
its up to you to do what you feel is the most right thing for you to do with your time and energy, bu thats where your responsibility- and your authority- ends

whether or not everyone or anyone else is using their time and energy appropriately is not any of your business, and its never going to be any of your business whether you like that or not

of course there are exceptions, such as being a parent, and any positions of authority that you earn in your daily life, but we arent your children or your employees, and we dont answer to you

everyone judges everyone because thats how our minds work, but we dont all really believe that we personally are so wise that we should be the one to decide what everyone else is allowed or not allowed to do or say

maybe you should focus on why it is that you feel the need to claim that level of authority, and how successful you think youre going to be at achieving it in the broader world

With all due respect (which is earned, not automatically given)...

1. I am a strong supporter of our Doctrine as it exists and I site it often as the founding principles of this Temple. I also believe it needs to constantly be revisited and applied appropriately to different real life situations. Defending our Doctrine, but still allowing loose interpretation of it by others or even myself does not make me inconsistent or someone who lacks integrity. It makes me a critical thinker willing to adjust to the current circumstances and respect other's ability to do the same.

2. The Jedi Path is a personal one and different for every individual. Each one of us comes from a different background and comes here for different reasons. It is disrespectful, presumptuous, and judgmental for anyone to believe they know what is best for any other Jedi here. We are best served by worrying about ourselves and letting others do what they will, assuming it is all within the rules of this forum. That's why Apprenticeship is personally tailored to every individual.

3. Just because some here feel the need to babysit other Jedi doesn't mean we need it or want it. Jedi are welcome to judge me and my actions, but I don't have to listen, agree, or change my behavior because of it. The only standards I will be held to are those in our Doctrine, the rules of this forum, and those of my Teaching Master that we have discussed often and at great length.

4. I find it condescending and disrespectful when anyone uses deceptive, dishonest, or disingenuous arguments in order to teach me a lesson or point out my flaws. I prefer direct criticism over "gotcha" tactics and traps. Anyone doing this loses my respect and I will question the credibility of anything they post going forward.

@Tellahane

You have done well, brother Jedi, in your experiment. To those who 'disagree' and "prefer direct criticism" vs "gotcha topics", keep in mind that life is always a test, and both Honesty and Lies come in a variety of forms.

That said, there is often an apparently wide gap in the forums on a number of matters, and I am glad you have noticed. It is something I myself noticed long ago, and since then I have done what you have suggested as well- I try to read as much as I can, and much of my private study is beyond the general forum. Try looking at some of my old posts, and you will see :silly: I would often be ignored or answered "according to how the answerer saw fit" (and often nothing added or detracted).

For that reason, I tend to keep to myself the majority of the time, and place myself in line for the opportunities for change that I aspire towards. That doesn't mean I lack integrity; I just choose my battles dude. This is forum where people can do what they want- I encourage you find who you vibe with and what they're doing, and get involved

I also like your tag idea- it would help me and those who know me (and who know what I'm into reading and working on) keep tabs on the "important" discussions of the Forum. The "forum" aspect of the Jedi community is only part of it- there are many other avenues to reach out and get the discussions and consistency you are looking for. Try PM's, Skype, or FB. I receive very little on the PM, but when I do, I usually give out my personal number for contact- and 9/10 times, that's where I have my deepest and most provoking discussions.

If you ever want to go down the rabbit hole, over anything-ANYTHING AT ALL, just gimme a holla

MTFBWY,
Jacob