You are NOT safe and you are NOT good enough

OB1Shinobi wrote: let me put it this way: reality is going to deal with each of us, whether we are ready for it or not

we're going to be alone (and thus lonely) for virtually all of our lives OR we are going to suffer loss of those we love, heartbreak, and outright betrayal

we're either going to be the first or next person in our circles to die, or we're going to have to endure the loss of people we care for through unexpected and agonizing death

we're going to spend our lives being mediocre (at best) or we are going to try for big things, and risk big things, and trying and risking inevitably means failing, and failing big time

at some time or another, we all make decisions and perform actions that hurt other people, deeply, and unfairly

and others will do as much to us

Warning: Here comes a cliche Jedi answer, but it does have some relevance to your assertions above.

Learn to let go of the things you fear to lose. While loss may indeed cause suffering, one will suffer less if they do not feel like they are losing so much. Hang on too tightly to something and we suffer all the more when it is inevitably taken from us.

Being alone does not have to mean we are lonely.

Fear of failure or feelings of mediocrity come when we cannot meet expectations, either our own or those of others. Learn to evaluate those expectations, and we can reduce the suffering that comes with failure. Success can be equally dangerous when we come to rely on it too much.

Verse 44 of the Tao Te Ching sums up my feelings on this pretty well.



Did I wake up today? Yes. Has a Liger eaten me yet? No. Did I have food to eat today? Yes. Have I caused any harm to others today? I don't think I have, at least not on purpose. Have I spent time in enjoyable company today? Yes.

So far, I am safe and I have been good enough. I believe I have been successful as a human today.

Senan wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: let me put it this way: reality is going to deal with each of us, whether we are ready for it or not

we're going to be alone (and thus lonely) for virtually all of our lives OR we are going to suffer loss of those we love, heartbreak, and outright betrayal

we're either going to be the first or next person in our circles to die, or we're going to have to endure the loss of people we care for through unexpected and agonizing death

we're going to spend our lives being mediocre (at best) or we are going to try for big things, and risk big things, and trying and risking inevitably means failing, and failing big time

at some time or another, we all make decisions and perform actions that hurt other people, deeply, and unfairly

and others will do as much to us

Warning: Here comes a cliche Jedi answer, but it does have some relevance to your assertions above.

Learn to let go of the things you fear to lose. While loss may indeed cause suffering, one will suffer less if they do not feel like they are losing so much. Hang on too tightly to something and we suffer all the more when it is inevitably taken from us.

Being alone does not have to mean we are lonely.

Fear of failure or feelings of mediocrity come when we cannot meet expectations, either our own or those of others. Learn to evaluate those expectations, and we can reduce the suffering that comes with failure. Success can be equally dangerous when we come to rely on it too much.

Verse 44 of the Tao Te Ching sums up my feelings on this pretty well.

Warning: Spoiler!

From the Stephen Mitchell Translation:

Fame or integrity: which is more important?
Money or happiness: which is more valuable?
Success or failure: which is more destructive?
If you look to others for fulfillment,
you will never truly be fulfilled.
If your happiness depends on money,
you will never be happy with yourself.
Be content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you.

Did I wake up today? Yes. Has a Liger eaten me yet? No. Did I have food to eat today? Yes. Have I caused any harm to others today? I don't think I have, at least not on purpose. Have I spent time in enjoyable company today? Yes.

So far, I am safe and I have been good enough. I believe I have been successful as a human today.

Well said Senan.

OB1, I'm in complete agreement with you here.
We should never become complacent. We should never be satisfied with who we are, unwilling to engage in self-improvement. And every person out there has the ability to improve. Even Buddha could've done well losing a few pounds. :laugh: This idea that everyone is perfect as they are is ludicrous and spits in the face of progress.

No, you're not safe. No one out there is guaranteeing that you'll never be offended or you'll never get hurt. No amount of safe spaces, coddling politicians, or police can prevent someone from shooting you in a random drive-by or mugging you with a knife. You're a fool if you think that these things afford you anything other than a false sense of security. None of the social movements out there are going to help you. (In fact, I recently read that a man died because social justice protesters prevented an ambulance from reaching him; these things may legitimately do more harm than good.) No amount of support from any number of people will make you more safe. There really is nothing you can do about it. Take some boxing classes or whatever and you're in a slightly better position, but you're still fundamentally not safe. Nothing out there can make you safe. No amount of laws or regulations can prevent someone from just randomly beating you to a bloody pulp. That's just the way it is.

Now, that's nothing to be upset about. It's just a fact of life. If you're upset by facts which can't be changed (short of denying the autonomy of every living person on the planet) then I really don't know how you survive. Nobody is safe, nobody is perfect, that's life, and it's fine.

TheDude wrote: No, you're not safe. No one out there is guaranteeing that you'll never be offended or you'll never get hurt. No amount of safe spaces, coddling politicians, or police can prevent someone from shooting you in a random drive-by or mugging you with a knife. You're a fool if you think that these things afford you anything other than a false sense of security. None of the social movements out there are going to help you. (In fact, I recently read that a man died because social justice protesters prevented an ambulance from reaching him; these things may legitimately do more harm than good.) No amount of support from any number of people will make you more safe. There really is nothing you can do about it. Take some boxing classes or whatever and you're in a slightly better position, but you're still fundamentally not safe. Nothing out there can make you safe. No amount of laws or regulations can prevent someone from just randomly beating you to a bloody pulp. That's just the way it is.

No one will ever be 100% safe, but no one here is claiming that. I can say with 100% certainty that I am safer sitting in this office chair right now than I would be on a street in Syria or a canoe in the middle of the ocean during a hurricane. An earthquake might kill me where i sit in the next ten minutes, but right now I feel safe, regardless of your assertion that I am fundamentally not safe.

I also act in a way that allows others to feel safe around me. Support from other people and simple agreement about acceptable behavior by a majority will make each of us more safe, despite the chaos that exists in the world. Social movements meant to encourage agreement among diverse groups of people can lessen the likelihood of individuals being beaten to a bloody pulp. Denying this reality flies directly in the face of your assertion that "every person out there has the ability to improve." I can improve myself by learning not to beat others to a bloody pulp, and in doing so I have made others around me safer. I can also learn to avoid situations where I will likely be beaten to a bloody pulp and suggest others do the same.

On the other hand, telling someone "you are NOT safe and you are NOT good enough" is the kind of rhetoric and fear mongering that encourages people to rely on firearms rather than reason to protect themselves from danger. Being unsafe is not a "fact of life", and your level of safety can in fact be changed by the decisions you make every moment. We do not need to remove the autonomy of individuals in order to guarantee safety. It is our autonomy as individuals that allows us to decide when we should work together for the safety of all. Cops aren't risking their lives just to make themselves safer. They do the opposite by putting themselves in unsafe situations in order to make me safer. I am not willing to discount efforts to make the world a safer place just because some choose to believe it is pointless. What frustrates me is that those who believe encouraging greater safety is pointless are the same people benefiting from the efforts of those who make them safer every day. This isn't a "false sense of security". It is a very real sense of security based on my current surroundings, and I am not a "fool" for understanding that certain actions by myself and others will contribute to my level of safety.

The funny thing is, these days when you tell people they're not OK as they are, they start hating their own race, sex or other body parts, and quite violently so.

i think a lot of people here have interpreted what im saying in exactly this way: with the assumption that not bullshitting themselves about their shortcomings is the same thing as hating themselves

and thats not only incorrect but its a really counterproductive way of thinking about things
just because you arent "OK" (whatever that actually means to you lol) does NOT mean that you deserve to be despised or ridiculed

it only means that you have work to do - which we all, ALWAYS do have work to do

This reminds me also of the movie Fight Club, when Tyler Durden says "self-improvement is masturbation!", referring to the fact that improvement for the sake of improvement is meaningless. Sacrifice is only meaningful if it has a purpose.

remember the "chemical burn" scene ?

"first, you have to give up; you have to know -not fear- know, that youre going to die"

Hating yourself for not fitting a mold is a waste of time. You don't "rage against the machine" by becoming a cog in a newer, shinier one. Finding what you truly want, however, and doing it, should be a joyous experience, regardless of the sacrifice and frustration involved. And no amount of complacency or, conversely, hatred, is going to get it done. Action, however, will.

i agree

for my part, i am attempting to encourage the idea of taking action in a decisive and honest way

I just have to say that I find it amusing that your signature has a link to a psych central post about challenging negative self talk. But then maybe you posted in that forum saying some of the same things you said here.

well thanks for the reminder, i like to change my sigs every few weeks/couple months

the idea you seem to be suggesting goes back to what ren said, and how people get confused and think that identifying their own flaws is the same thing as hating or hurting themselves

positive self talk is predicated on honesty; if you try to B.S. yourself about something, and convince yourself of some happy lie, the result will be that you will end up feeling worse about yourself than you did before you tried to lie

ignoring our flaws is not healthy positive self talk, and acknowledging our flaws is not negative self talk

negative talk would be like "its not possible for me to improve, i am worthless and hopeless"

positive self talk would be like "i am willing to work and make some effort to improve, and if i make effort, my effort will pay off"

"i am capable of growing and making progress"

thats the heart of positive self talk - it is honest and it is hopeful, it is the most hopeful and positive way of understanding the situation that one can HONESTLY accept

sometimes saying "well i realize i had no idea what i was talking about" is positive self talk, because it is honest and it admits the need to re-evaluate

which we all need to do fairly regularly i think

On the other hand, telling someone "you are NOT safe and you are NOT good enough" is the kind of rhetoric and fear mongering that encourages people to rely on firearms rather than reason to protect themselves from danger. Being unsafe is not a "fact of life", and your level of safety can in fact be changed by the decisions you make every moment.

if being unsafe was NOT a basic fact of life, then there would be an decision that could make you markedly safer because youd already be safe - safe is safe

if youre safe then you dont need to make smart decisions

but youre not safe
while its true that civilization does everything it can to make sure that nothing unpredictable happens, at fundamental level we are all about as safe as a caterpillar walking along the edge of a leaf in the middle of the jungle

now you might call this fear mongering, but id say thats a fearful interpretation

it takes a lot of courage to face the truth of our "caterpillarness"

my message is more along the lines of "screw your courage to the sticking place" (or maybe "grow a pair") because it takes a lot of courage to face the truth of our "caterpillarness"

courage doesnt mean that one "feels safe"
especially NOT at the expense of blinding oneself to reality
courage is to have self control when we are in danger

so i would say that you are fear mongering by telling people that "everything is ok"
and that i am courage-mongering because i am telling people "everything will never ever be "OK" - your job is to develop yourself so that you can handle that"

fearful people need to be reassured that they are safe - courageous people want to be competent enough to face the dangers and difficulties of their circumstances

as an aside, do you think that every gun owner is some kind of skittish, unreasonable pussycat, who is so afraid of shadows and phantoms that they need an ak 47 and exploding underwear just to walk out to their mailbox?

OB1Shinobi wrote: if being unsafe was NOT a basic fact of life, then there would be an decision that could make you markedly safer because youd already be safe - safe is safe

It is just as true to say that being safe is a basic fact of life and it is bad decisions that make one unsafe.

"Safe" and "unsafe" are not absolutes. You can definitely be "safer" or "less safe" based on your actions and the environment you put yourself in. I'm safer jumping out of an airplane if I'm wearing a parachute. I'm even safer if I never leave the ground in the first place. This doesn't make skydiving safe or unsafe. It entirely depends on the person doing it and the level of preparedness and training. Whether you'll believe it or not, any idiot can get lucky and pull a rip cord without any training. The parachute could fail, but it could also work perfectly. Assuming the worst result all the time is living in fear. It is more logical to assess the risk and then provide for the safest outcome.

OB1Shinobi wrote: if youre safe then you dont need to make smart decisions

So because I'm safe on the side of the highway right now I should go ahead and walk into moving traffic?

OB1Shinobi wrote: but youre not safe

I'm safer on the side of the road than I am standing in the middle of it. I know this so I make the decision to remain where I am safe.

OB1Shinobi wrote: while its true that civilization does everything it can to make sure that nothing unpredictable happens, at fundamental level we are all about as safe as a caterpillar walking along the edge of a leaf in the middle of the jungle

Civilization is not at a fundamental level any longer. We don't live in the jungle. We are not in the business of making sure nothing unpredictable happens. We are in the business of being safer when it does. That also means avoiding risk which inherently makes someone safer. Knowing the risks to avoid comes with being more civilized, which makes civilization safer. I live five miles from the largest earthquake fault on the North American continent. I know the risk is much higher for me than most to experience a catastrophic earthquake, so I am likely way more prepared for it than someone in Florida would be. I am safer because I have learned how to prepare, and that is good enough for me.

OB1Shinobi wrote: now you might call this fear mongering, but id say thats a fearful interpretation

it takes a lot of courage to face the truth of our "caterpillarness"

my message is more along the lines of "screw your courage to the sticking place" (or maybe "grow a pair") because it takes a lot of courage to face the truth of our "caterpillarness"

No, it doesn't require courage to face one's mortality. One can be terrified of death constantly, and yet not be in any real danger. One can also believe they are invincible and die suddenly without ever knowing the fear. As rational beings, we also have to accept that we make decisions about our own safety that far outreach the capability of a caterpillar. The ever increasing life expectancy of human beings is direct evidence that we have learned how to be safer as a species.

OB1Shinobi wrote: courage doesnt mean that one "feels safe"
especially NOT at the expense of blinding oneself to reality
courage is to have self control when we are in danger

Agreed, but courage doesn't only appear when we are in danger. Courage can come from a feeling of being safe as well. Using the example I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't jump out of a plane without a parachute. I'd be terrified. I'm not blind to the danger. Once I'm wearing a parachute, however, I have the courage to do it. My knowledge and decision making has mitigated the danger and made the activity safe.

OB1Shinobi wrote: so i would say that you are fear mongering by telling people that "everything is ok"
and that i am courage-mongering because i am telling people "everything will never ever be "OK" - your job is to develop yourself so that you can handle that"

fearful people need to be reassured that they are safe - courageous people want to be competent enough to face the dangers and difficulties of their circumstances

Everything can be okay, and right now as I type this it is for me. You telling me I am not safe right now doesn't suddenly make me not safe. I am currently good enough to face this situation without a need to be any more competent than I currently am to handle it. I don't need to improve myself to continue sitting at this desk. I also do not feel unsafe. Wanting to be competent enough to face danger and difficulty does not require one to be afraid. I can have a perfect sense of safety and security where I sit right now and still prepare myself for possible danger I will be in when my situation is different.

The flaw in the logic behind the title of this post is that while we can always be safer and always be better (which I agree we should strive for), we can also be less safe than we are now and be much worse. I am not in a constant state of peril, despite what you would have me believe.

OB1Shinobi wrote: as an aside, do you think that every gun owner is some kind of skittish, unreasonable pussycat, who is so afraid of shadows and phantoms that they need an ak 47 and exploding underwear just to walk out to their mailbox?

As a gun owner myself, no, I do not believe that. I use my rifles and shotgun for sport and I enjoy them very much for that. I could use my shotgun for home defense if I felt it was necessary, but I don't. I feel safe in my home without having it loaded next to my bed. I feel this way because I am aware of my surroundings and the threat level that exists, and my current state of readiness is good enough and I am safe.

Very true. I agree with you.

I also agree with your OP. While it can be helpful to remind oneself that one has value it is not helpful to fill one's head with nonsense about being perfect the way one is. I get tired of the namby-pamby, wishy-washy bullcrap that sometimes get fed to us. This crap about being fine the way we are is silly. While I do think it's true that most people ARE "fine" the way they are that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. I am not satisfied with being okay or fine. I also do not aim for perfection. I figure if I aim too high I'll only get discouraged. I aim for near constant improvement. As long as I'm working towards becoming better I figure I'm doing alright and should keep going.

As far as not being safe...well yea. I've actually heard that meditation on the fact that you will die can actually be helpful. It is not a bad thing to consider one's own mortality. It reminds us that we likely have this one life to live and should do the best we possibly can with the time allotted to us. One of my favorite quotes from the Lord of the Rings films is "All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." I try to think about that often, especially when faced with a choice.