Christian Extremism is Right There [Read first post]

Before I get into this I want to make a few disclaimers:

1. This isn't a blanket hatred post for Christianity.
2. I hesitate to even talk about this kind of thing because I'm concerned you'll call me crazy and dismiss me... Again.

The image below is a screenshot of a few messages in response to the Los Angeles chapter of The Satanic Temple announcing they were going to be starting up an After School Satan club in elementary schools where Christian clubs are present. Other chapters are reporting receiving similar messages where ASSC is being brought to schools.



The Satanic Temple, in response to prevalence of after school Christian clubs in elementary schools, decided to get in on the action. Keep in mind that TST's position is that the ideal would be that schools would be for secular education and that religious education would take place elsewhere, preferably at an age when kids can consent to receiving such an education and not before. Campaigns such as this one are designed to draw attention to way of doing things that society just assumes to be normal without consideration for the precedent and oftentimes bias underlying it. There are also specific grievances with organizations that target children as optimal drones for brainwashing (let's not sugarcoat it here, folks, these kids are too damn young to challenge Church authority and to expect them to is unfair). To clarify, TST is not attempting to convert children to Satanism. The ASSC aims to teach kids science, critical thinking (at an age-appropriate level), and other valuable life skills applicable to children as well as adults.

I get really tired of people telling me that I'm just a bitter ex-Christian when I try to talk about just how messed up Christians are (at least, here in America). I keep trying to explain why I believe what I say to be true, but usually it just turns into a condescending one-way conversation where someone tells me I'm too extreme, making broad and unfair generalizations, or it becomes about how hard it is to be a Christian in today's world. As I said, this isn't just a thread for bashing Christians. That might make a few of us feel good, but it won't accomplish much of anything.

The response Christians have been giving TST chapters comes as no shock to me, except that they're stupid enough to post it on Facebook. It comes as no shock because this is the kind of foolish violent terrorism I grew up with and called "my Christian faith". That anyone would be surprised speaks to me about how much of a blind spot there is regarding Christians. Christianity has such a hold on people that we don't even ask ourselves why the hell they're allowed to do the things they do. Furthermore, there's absolutely no reason Christians have to be this way. They could just as easily be peace-loving hippies who wash people's feet, feed the homeless, and be known for their hospitality to anyone who comes to their door . The problem is that they're not all like that, in fact, there are so few that are truly like that.

So, without uselessly commenting "yeah, f--- Christianity", can we please talk about Christianity especially as it appears in America? Can we have an honest discussion of the violent ideologies which have seeped into what could just as easily be peaceful religion? Can we please stop pretending this is anything less than terrorism? Can we please stop pretending that when the State chooses to allow Christians to have what they want while barring other religions from the same that it's anything less than fascist endorsement of a state religion?

If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian. ~ Mark Twain

I'm not surprised at the reaction of the Texan or that this is the reaction of Christians. I am surprised at the reaction of the other people that seem to be in California. California should be better than that. I thought we were a progressive and open-minded state. Apparently we aren't.

I have my problems with Christianity too. I don't think you're off base on this one at all. This IS advocating terrorism and it's frightening. I'm in total agreement with you on this one. Christians should be peace-loving people who oppose murder for any reason. But, as I said, it doesn't really surprise me to see Christians behaving like this in America. Christianity has been twisted and warped so far from its roots that I see few redeeming qualities to modern Christianity. On top of that it seems like such a wishy washy religion... there are "commandements" that must be obeyed but then all you have to do is believe and have faith and you'll go to paradise when you die. Apparently some Christians think this excuses their vile behavior while alive. These people definitely shouldn't get away with this kind of behavior. No one should get away with that kind of reaction whether they're Christian or not.

I, too, hesitate to post. I hesitate for exactly the same reasons as you! This is a difficult post for me to reply to because, while it's hard for me to articulate how, I do think it verges very slightly into "Christians are/Christianity is the problem." If we go down that path, we're no better than the people who say that (for example) Islam is, at its core, behind the death cult called ISIS or the numerous other atrocities that happen across the Middle East and North Africa every single day, almost always against other Muslims (who have to bury their innocent dead far more often than we westerners do — yet we, curiously, do not give them our "thoughts and prayers" every day.) I can understand why, for example, my Muslim brothers and sisters across the world are, of all the people I know, the ones advocating the strongest measures possible to destroy ISIS.

That these people you write of are extremists who happen to be Christians does not make them, at least in my view, "Christian extremists." If they believe in a warped view of Christianity that moves them to advocate or commit violence against innocent people, I do not think it is accurate to call them Christian anythings anymore, since they have already left the fundamental teachings and commandments of Christ behind. They're just dangerous extremists and terrorists at that point. But I imagine you (and most people here) will not agree with me on this. (This is, incidentally, why President Obama gets so much flak from the right for refusing to use the phrase "Islamic terrorism" and similar terms.)

You say that there are so few Christians who live up to what Jesus told his followers to do, but as a Christian, as someone who interacts with so many Christians across so many denominations and *hears* of so many Christians across denominations, I quite strongly disagree. The extremists are loud because force is generally louder than anything else by default. It is easy to shine a spotlight on hate and wickedness. The Christians who walk the walk don't get much press or attention because it doesn't exactly bring in the page hits or drive up the ratings on [insert television news outlet of choice.] I can only account for the ones I know, but they don't seek attention in the first place. I cannot begin to list the number of amazing, insane acts of generosity, kindness and compassion I have witnessed first-hand or heard of in the Christian community both in America and around the world.

Does this mean that Christianity is without problems? Not in the least. It makes me seethe with rage that churches within my own tradition actively support the death penalty for LGBT people (mostly in sub-Saharan Africa), and that these same churches are able to associate with genocidal dictators with impunity. (Meanwhile, The Episcopal Church gets sanctioned because we decided LGBT people deserve to be treated like all other human beings.) The "religious right", which is so inconsistent and insincere about actually following Christian teachings that I have long held it to be morally bankrupt, still dominates American politics in the 21st century, somehow refusing to die. It is profoundly disturbing that the myth of America as a "Christian nation" persists and grows, especially when the people espousing that myth usually place guns and xenophobia on a higher pedestal than their faith. It boggles my mind that any American Christians could possibly call themselves an oppressed minority. And I'm not alone: there are so many groups within so many Christian denominations fighting these evils you speak of that it makes my head spin. I feel like I learn of a new one every single day.

I can also name numerous examples of individual Christians who provide powerful counterpoints to the madness that people claim to perpetuate in the name of Jesus. People who speak out, people who protest, people who sometimes even literally fight back. It gives me hope, genuine hope, that our society will be better than this one day. But it also makes me wonder, "what more do you want from us?" This is not a rhetorical question. We recognize that there are adherents of our faith who twist it into ill designs and inflict suffering on other people, Christians and non-Christians alike. We call it terrorism too. There's really no getting around that fact. We're doing our damnedest to fight it and we're not your enemy.

I respect you a lot, Jamie, but reading this, I can't help but feel like this is on the same wavelength as the people who accuse Muslims of not doing enough to disown ISIS and other terrorist groups. What exactly would satisfy your unmet desires here, if not what we are already doing?

Edit: Also, your intentions are noble in saying that this isn't a "thread for bashing Christians," but this is the TOTJO. What do you think will happen anyways?

These debates are always somewhat alien to me since religion doesn’t have that much of an influence in Germany. For example, oaths in courts or other official functions may be given using reference to god, but such reference is not obligatory. To this point I was surprised to learn it had been changed in America ‘recently’.

That being said Jamie (and pointing out that I even agree with you to some degree) I am not surprised Christians don’t react all too well when you use words like “the kind of foolish violent terrorism I grew up with and called "my Christian faith"” to describe what they currently believe in. And that’s not a Christian thing either, I’d argue no one likes to have their faith called foolish, whatever that faith may be.

Then again your last paragraph rectifies that impression as you state you believe, that these violent tendencies are foreign to Christianity. I agree with this entirely. Just as there are violent Buddhists there are those who chose Christian faith as a justification to enact what I believe goes against everything this religion should stand for.

As a closing I have a question to anyone who would be willing to fill this gap of knowledge for me: I always thought, that the words of Christ were peaceful and that most of these odd believes stem from ‘added’ books to the bible of other prophets – at any rate words not attributed to Christ himself. Am I wrong with this?
As a follow up question: I wonder why people would pick their words (if my previous assumption is correct) other those of Christ himself?

Isn't it an expected type of reaction though? Not the extent of reaction mind you!!! Yikes, half of those responses would make Satan proud
:silly:

But I cannot help consider, if you identify yourself as a murder for example and expect people to go out of their way to discover you actually mean the term in some artistic interpretive way and not literally killing people - then your denying both the obvious reality people will be having a first impression contrary to your actual self, but also that they will have a strong bad initial reaction (most likely).

We have enough trouble telling people real Jedi are not the same as in the movies, and that is a benign difference!! Satan has a rather clear cut role in Abrahamic faith AFAIK and so the connection exists, and is quite.... strong. Many people do not have the time to cater to the level of detail they perhaps should, and rely on familiar definitions for terms.

I'd love to think people would take the time to research things before forming an opinion, and find out what Satanism might actually mean.... but by the same margin, the historical and established beliefs around Satan do include deception and the like, and so no matter how much a Satanist might try to explain the difference between biblical Satan and Satanism, it will continue to inherit that flaw by making that particular association to something so strongly represented in our societies already. To me that is a big risk for the concept if it wants to integrate in that established system.

I have to assume those Christians feel threatened because of this, and therefore this is how they justify the reaction.... but its not 'Christianity' or all Christians. Blame has to be appropriate or it risks increasing the extent of participants and broadening the reasons for the division outwards from the initial conflict. State facilities I guess should support a range of things but they would probably try to avoid conflict.... which this seems to sorta walk right into a bit!?

I personally reckon religion should exist within education as part of history, leaving it up to individuals to forge their own commitments privately or within family or social networks, and clearly separate from the State and its powers... which means there would not be religious groups in public schools to begin with LOL, problem avoided!!

Fun topic, sorry to read so many prone to violence.

Your friendly local Christian saying all Christians are not like that

x57z12 wrote: As a closing I have a question to anyone who would be willing to fill this gap of knowledge for me: I always thought, that the words of Christ were peaceful and that most of these odd believes stem from ‘added’ books to the bible of other prophets – at any rate words not attributed to Christ himself. As a follow up question: I wonder why people would pick their words (if my previous assumption is correct) other those of Christ himself.

Do you mean words from books from the Old Testament? I can kind of answer this, though before reading this I did say, "right, Adi, you're not supposed to be posting on the TOTJO anymore, what are you doing?!" I just spent the last year studying the entire Old Testament, book by book, and it is clear that it was written by many different people, for many different audiences, at many different times (possibly as long as a period spanning over 1000 years, if we include some of the oldest Psalms.) Interpreting the words of the Old Testament in their literary and historical context is very important.

Following that path, I agree with the assessment of a Biblical scholar who argued that the Old Testament, in sum, was the most revolutionary work of social justice in the ancient world. I have read a great deal of literature from the same region and time period as the books of the Old Testament, and it's frankly somewhat unprecedented. There are books of the Old Testament (Amos and Hosea, for example) that place an incredible and eerily "modern-sounding" emphasis on the role of humans, not gods, in creating a fair, civilized and just society.

For that reason and for many others, I cannot simply discard the Old Testament as being irrelevant as a lot of Christians do. So, why do people pick words from the Old Testament out of context and use them to make arguments that have nothing to do with their original context/meaning? Probably for the same reason people take anything out of context and use it to make specific arguments. The oft-demonized Leviticus was written for a very specific audience at a very specific time, not for everyone. The book of Joshua, modelled on the terror propaganda of the Assyrian Empire, was probably an inspiring tale for people who were living in exile and under the heel of a foreign power at the time.

Anyone who takes a verse from Leviticus or Joshua and says, "This is how the modern world ought to be," is missing the point. And in a way, they're doing so by intent — if they knew the point, it would not have that meaning for them. Christ's teachings are loaded with callbacks and allusions to the Old Testament: some of it is subtle and some of it knocks you on the head, but all of it takes into account that context. The study bible I use, a juggernaut of a tome, includes handy references for these callbacks and allusions, verse by verse. Jesus did not show up and say, "Alright folks, the Old Testament doesn't matter anymore." His teachings, while powerful on their own, still assumed that the listener/reader had a good handle on the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.

Let’s see (got to read up on the English words for what I only know in German so please bear with me):
As far as I remember (it has been some time) certain parts of the new testament were written about Christ himself, recounting his life and quoting him more or less directly. The rest of it were letters of the apostles or narratives of some kind about them and so on. I am not well versed with the bible, hence the question: Why would people choose parts of the letters and interpretations by apostles above the quoted words of Christ?

x57z12 wrote: Why would people choose parts of the letters and interpretations by apostles above the quoted words of Christ?

Adi wrote: So, why do people pick words from the Old Testament out of context and use them to make arguments that have nothing to do with their original context/meaning? Probably for the same reason people take anything out of context and use it to make specific arguments.

To expand on this a bit because it's 3 AM and I'm scatter-brained (hence making poor choices and posting in this thread.) Jesus saying that one should love their neighbour as themselves, or Peter saying, "God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean" does not resonate much with someone who does not want to love their neighbour, or someone who wants to call another person profane or unclean. So, they ignore it, and search for something that fits their viewpoint instead, even if it means ignoring the context and meaning of the greater sum of the work.