About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
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12 Jul 2016 00:06 #247886
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
This is really get out of control and yes we are all part of the problem but I think everyone should take a deeper look into Black Lives Matter. That's a nice photo above, but this whole movement and all these protest are far, oh soooo very far from the days of Martin Luther King Jr and I'm sure he's rolling in his grave.
Warning: Spoiler!
Is it possible liberal billionaires would support a racist group that markets white guilt for political gain and embraces activists calling for the lynching of white people and cops?
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/08/28/black-activists-called-for-lynching-and-hanging-of-white-people-and-cops/
In November, members of Black Lives Matter (BLM) met behind closed doors with Democracy Alliance, a coterie of wealthy liberals who have pledged to fund leftist organizations.
The donor club was founded by former Clinton Treasury official Rob Stein. Members include the billionaire “philanthropist” George Soros, Taco Bell silver spoon baby Rob McKay, uber liberal Norman Lear, “meathead” Rob Reiner, co-founder of Tides Network Drummond Pike, SEIU boss Anna Burger (members of the union like to beat up opponents), and former Rockefeller Family Fund president Anne Bartley.
“The DA, as the club is known in Democratic circles, is recommending its donors step up check writing to a handful of endorsed groups that have supported the Black Lives Matter movement. And the club and some of its members also are considering ways to funnel support directly to scrappier local groups that have utilized confrontational tactics to inject their grievances into the political debate,” Politico reported.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814
Investigative journalist James Simpson has exposed connections between BLM and a constellation of leftist and Marxist groups, a number of them established as fronts by the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO).
http://www.aim.org/special-report/reds-exploiting-blacks-the-roots-of-black-lives-matter/
“BLM is one of many projects undertaken by the FRSO,” writes Simpson. He points out that FRSO and BLM receive funding through the National Domestic Workers Alliance (NDWA). “FRSO/BLM organizations are generously supported by a universe of wealthy foundations. Some, like those employing BLM founders [Alicia Garza and Opal Tometi] receive money directly.”
Many FRSO connected leftist and Marxist groups are also funded by other wealthy individuals, foundations, and corporations, including Kellogg, Ben & Jerry’s, Soros Funds, Hewlett, Rockefeller, Heinz, and others.
The Ford Foundation tops the list of NDWA financial contributors. It has funded CIA cultural fronts since the 1950s.
http://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/FordFandCIA.html
“At times it seemed as if the Ford Foundation was simply an extension of Government in the area of international cultural propaganda. The Ford Foundation had a record of close involvement in covert actions in Europe, working closely with Marshall Plan and CIA officials on specific projects,” writes the author of The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters, Frances Stonor Saunders.
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-cia-seeks-to-achieve-through-ford.html
It may seem contradictory for the state and wealthy liberals—many undoubtedly brainwashed dupes—to support organizations and individuals calling for abolishing capitalism and advocating the most severe form of Marxist ideology.
As the late Gary Allen so eloquently pointed out (None Dare Call It Conspiracy), socialism is a perfect mechanism for controlling humanity.
“If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of superrich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead it becomes the logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism, or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite.”
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/08/28/black-activists-called-for-lynching-and-hanging-of-white-people-and-cops/
In November, members of Black Lives Matter (BLM) met behind closed doors with Democracy Alliance, a coterie of wealthy liberals who have pledged to fund leftist organizations.
The donor club was founded by former Clinton Treasury official Rob Stein. Members include the billionaire “philanthropist” George Soros, Taco Bell silver spoon baby Rob McKay, uber liberal Norman Lear, “meathead” Rob Reiner, co-founder of Tides Network Drummond Pike, SEIU boss Anna Burger (members of the union like to beat up opponents), and former Rockefeller Family Fund president Anne Bartley.
“The DA, as the club is known in Democratic circles, is recommending its donors step up check writing to a handful of endorsed groups that have supported the Black Lives Matter movement. And the club and some of its members also are considering ways to funnel support directly to scrappier local groups that have utilized confrontational tactics to inject their grievances into the political debate,” Politico reported.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814
Investigative journalist James Simpson has exposed connections between BLM and a constellation of leftist and Marxist groups, a number of them established as fronts by the Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO).
http://www.aim.org/special-report/reds-exploiting-blacks-the-roots-of-black-lives-matter/
“BLM is one of many projects undertaken by the FRSO,” writes Simpson. He points out that FRSO and BLM receive funding through the National Domestic Workers Alliance (NDWA). “FRSO/BLM organizations are generously supported by a universe of wealthy foundations. Some, like those employing BLM founders [Alicia Garza and Opal Tometi] receive money directly.”
Many FRSO connected leftist and Marxist groups are also funded by other wealthy individuals, foundations, and corporations, including Kellogg, Ben & Jerry’s, Soros Funds, Hewlett, Rockefeller, Heinz, and others.
The Ford Foundation tops the list of NDWA financial contributors. It has funded CIA cultural fronts since the 1950s.
http://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/FordFandCIA.html
“At times it seemed as if the Ford Foundation was simply an extension of Government in the area of international cultural propaganda. The Ford Foundation had a record of close involvement in covert actions in Europe, working closely with Marshall Plan and CIA officials on specific projects,” writes the author of The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters, Frances Stonor Saunders.
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-cia-seeks-to-achieve-through-ford.html
It may seem contradictory for the state and wealthy liberals—many undoubtedly brainwashed dupes—to support organizations and individuals calling for abolishing capitalism and advocating the most severe form of Marxist ideology.
As the late Gary Allen so eloquently pointed out (None Dare Call It Conspiracy), socialism is a perfect mechanism for controlling humanity.
“If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of superrich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead it becomes the logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism, or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite.”
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12 Jul 2016 00:27 - 12 Jul 2016 00:28 #247888
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
I worry that it is painting a larger group as responsible for the crimes of a minority within that larger group, its the same mechanism used in all discrimination be it racism, sexism etc. Using it as a tool for publicity is not an acceptable excuse in my opinion. It creates division where it need not exist by miscasting blame.
No doubt a problem with abuse of enforcement powers exists, and no doubt its an issue that needs to be addressed yesterday.... but has BLM worked, and is it making it worse are some of the questions I have... and I wish the movement had been done a different way somehow, to be more effective while being more specific to the actual root of the problem.
No doubt a problem with abuse of enforcement powers exists, and no doubt its an issue that needs to be addressed yesterday.... but has BLM worked, and is it making it worse are some of the questions I have... and I wish the movement had been done a different way somehow, to be more effective while being more specific to the actual root of the problem.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 00:28 by Adder.
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12 Jul 2016 00:30 #247889
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Thank you for the link Adi. Context really helps with any photo. A photo is never a complete story by itself, there's always more.
I will say though that there is ALWAYS more than one side to a story. Unless of course you're locked in a room by yourself by your own choosing. But then again, there would also be the stories of the people who would otherwise be seeing you and the stories of what happened to you to cause you stay in the room alone which would almost certainly involve other people who would have a side to tell, but this is getting off topic.
I will say that if police are currently clearing an area and you purposely step into the area after knowing that they're clearing it you literally just asked them to move you. From what I read it sounds like she was completely unharmed, the photo just makes it look like there is the potential for violence after the fact. Again, it's a powerful and beautiful photo, it just does not tell the whole story all by itself.
Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Adi wrote: It's more likely the photo was just taken... because it just happened to be taken, not because it was set up with some kind of agenda aiming to show "one side of the story." It was taken by a Reuters photojournalist.
Anyway, if you want to know the story , or "the truth" as it were: the short version is that she was standing on a road the police were clearing by force, not moving or speaking, and the police rushing toward her in the photograph detained her — according to the photographer, other eyewitnesses and the woman herself. Sometimes there is only one side to a story.
Thank you for the link Adi. Context really helps with any photo. A photo is never a complete story by itself, there's always more.
I will say though that there is ALWAYS more than one side to a story. Unless of course you're locked in a room by yourself by your own choosing. But then again, there would also be the stories of the people who would otherwise be seeing you and the stories of what happened to you to cause you stay in the room alone which would almost certainly involve other people who would have a side to tell, but this is getting off topic.
I will say that if police are currently clearing an area and you purposely step into the area after knowing that they're clearing it you literally just asked them to move you. From what I read it sounds like she was completely unharmed, the photo just makes it look like there is the potential for violence after the fact. Again, it's a powerful and beautiful photo, it just does not tell the whole story all by itself.
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12 Jul 2016 01:01 - 12 Jul 2016 02:00 #247891
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
@tzb; thats an awesome image! thank you very much for sharing that
sometimes you stand your ground and make them move you because thats the only power that you have
http://www.globalissues.org/article/46/wto-protests-in-seattle-1999
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=amnSUM8mSxI
sometimes you stand your ground and make them move you because thats the only power that you have
http://www.globalissues.org/article/46/wto-protests-in-seattle-1999
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=amnSUM8mSxI
People are complicated.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 02:00 by OB1Shinobi.
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12 Jul 2016 01:04 #247892
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Those are interpretations, not stories. While Nietzsche, Mr. "There are no facts, only interpretations", would disagree, I tend to think the facts are the real story. Anything else is just an interpretation of it. The story here is relatively simple. Like you said (and like I said, and like the article said), the police were clearing an area (a road) and this woman decided to stand against them in silent, unmoving, nonviolent protest. The photo shows that. There's no other way to tell that story from the facts available. The "story" is added by other accounts: that the woman was immediately detained and that was what the police officers were rushing to do. That the woman did not say a single word. etc. But that is still "just the facts, ma'am."
Now, the interpretations could be anything: the woman was a dangerous protestor defying the rule of law and was rightly arrested by the onrushing, heavily-armoured police officers in the photo. The police officers were responding to a peaceful, beautiful expression of American defiance with an armoured fist and a pair of handcuffs. Or anything in-between. But the story is relatively simple. In our post-facts society, in the world where Donald Trump can make other politicians look like bastions of honesty and truth and yet still storm through the polls, in the world where narratives and memes are more important to people than facts and evidence, I can see why you might *think* those interpretations are the story. But in this case, they're really not.
Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Goken wrote: I will say though that there is ALWAYS more than one side to a story. Unless of course you're locked in a room by yourself by your own choosing. But then again, there would also be the stories of the people who would otherwise be seeing you and the stories of what happened to you to cause you stay in the room alone which would almost certainly involve other people who would have a side to tell, but this is getting off topic.
Those are interpretations, not stories. While Nietzsche, Mr. "There are no facts, only interpretations", would disagree, I tend to think the facts are the real story. Anything else is just an interpretation of it. The story here is relatively simple. Like you said (and like I said, and like the article said), the police were clearing an area (a road) and this woman decided to stand against them in silent, unmoving, nonviolent protest. The photo shows that. There's no other way to tell that story from the facts available. The "story" is added by other accounts: that the woman was immediately detained and that was what the police officers were rushing to do. That the woman did not say a single word. etc. But that is still "just the facts, ma'am."
Now, the interpretations could be anything: the woman was a dangerous protestor defying the rule of law and was rightly arrested by the onrushing, heavily-armoured police officers in the photo. The police officers were responding to a peaceful, beautiful expression of American defiance with an armoured fist and a pair of handcuffs. Or anything in-between. But the story is relatively simple. In our post-facts society, in the world where Donald Trump can make other politicians look like bastions of honesty and truth and yet still storm through the polls, in the world where narratives and memes are more important to people than facts and evidence, I can see why you might *think* those interpretations are the story. But in this case, they're really not.
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12 Jul 2016 11:56 - 12 Jul 2016 12:22 #247906
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
More water for the fire:
"The youngest black professor ever to receive tenure at Harvard and recipient of an economics prize for “most promising American economist under 40” has just upended the conventional wisdom on police shootings.
There is no racial bias when officers fire on suspects, according to a new study by Prof. Roland Fryer – black suspects are actually less likely to be shot than other suspects."
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/28107/
All lives matter. These recent series of events are all blown out of proportion and then picked up by useful idiots to champion a worthless cause that only divides us and brings us all down to serve the agenda of the truly racist and powerful elites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsx_Djw6Dog
LOL this guy is truly on point especiall toward the end and should be in charge of slapping these protestors with a large raw fish.
"The youngest black professor ever to receive tenure at Harvard and recipient of an economics prize for “most promising American economist under 40” has just upended the conventional wisdom on police shootings.
There is no racial bias when officers fire on suspects, according to a new study by Prof. Roland Fryer – black suspects are actually less likely to be shot than other suspects."
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/28107/
All lives matter. These recent series of events are all blown out of proportion and then picked up by useful idiots to champion a worthless cause that only divides us and brings us all down to serve the agenda of the truly racist and powerful elites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsx_Djw6Dog
LOL this guy is truly on point especiall toward the end and should be in charge of slapping these protestors with a large raw fish.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 12:22 by .
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12 Jul 2016 12:03 - 12 Jul 2016 12:09 #247907
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Replied by on topic Jedi Bush-trackers...
I was joking im not gunna hurt anybody im a weakling anyway :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: but srsly michael moore endorses bernie, he's no capitalist.
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moved here by Wescli Wardest
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moved here by Wescli Wardest
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 12:09 by Wescli Wardest.
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12 Jul 2016 12:04 - 12 Jul 2016 12:09 #247908
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Replied by on topic Jedi Bush-trackers...
uh sorry wrong thread 
:laugh: :laugh:
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moved here by Wescli Wardest
:laugh: :laugh:[hr]
moved here by Wescli Wardest
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 12:09 by Wescli Wardest.
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12 Jul 2016 12:06 #247911
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
I was joking im not gunna hurt anybody im a weakling anyway :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: but srsly michael moore endorses bernie, he's no capitalist. He's a socialist. And I'm fed up of gun toting americans hating the man who is trying to help them and get your country run by appropriate people like bernie not bush (you guys arent gun toting americans, that was purely for the idiots in your country, of which, no offence and i hate to say, there are a lot of)
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12 Jul 2016 12:42 #247914
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:lol:
Gun owning Americans hating a man trying to help them, with socialism? Wow and after Comrade Sanders anti-Wall St rhetoric he comes out and supports Hillary the ultimate NEOCON and 100% Wall St backed, oh the irony. Who is appropriate is just opinion and for me Trump is the only appropriate choice even though he's too brutally honest about the issues and runs off out the mouth.
America was different
In Europe, government tyranny has broken out like a rash with unerring regularity.
In the UK, for example, you are so used to not really owning anything (you have to pay taxes on anything of value you think you own, and when you die the government taxes it all over again) and having no means of defense (if you try defending yourself against attack you are likely to go to prison) you don’t even know that it can be any other way.
But America was – and to some extent still is – different. In America the common man retains the right of the nobility in many states: he can own a gun and defend himself and his country against the government using it.
But that last vestige of freedom is being chipped away at.
The United States is already usurpacious. Americans have had almost everything taken from them. The laws on posse comitatus have been circumvented and the police has been morphed into a militarized organization which sees the population as the enemy.
Freedom of speech as a basic right – unless one is agitating for a sanctioned agenda item – is a thing of the past; banned except in so-called free-speech zones.
A full-on domestic spy agency is in place which would make the Stasi seem small-time, and torture is defended and advocated by people in senior positions.
Rather than the home of the brave and the land of the free, the US has become the place not to go on holiday if you don’t want a gruelling or groping by the TSA or a full-on beating or tasing by the steroid-head police force; the range of oppression you can face at the hands of America’s soda-guzzling, pizza-eating Blue Shirts grows daily more bizarre.
The political process is a sham and the media is weaponized, serving undeclared interests and poisoning the body politic. And the FBI will find you innocent of major crimes if you serve the system long enough for it to hand you the baton as the next President.
If this is not indicative of usurpacious government, then what is?
The one thing remaining to America from its frontiersman, self-reliant origins – the one thing standing between that diminishing portion of the US citizenry still capable of rational thought and open tyranny – is the fact that when the militarised police start shooting at the people, the people can shoot back.
Responsibility
The gun question boils down to core views on responsibility: who do you want to take responsibility for your life – you or the government?
Liberals are fundamentally collectivistic and statist. Like Stalin or Hitler, they want to legislate personal initiative and responsibility out of the equation and render all people dependent on government. They believe in collective punishment. If one man somewhere kills a cat with a tin-opener, then prosecuting that one man is not the answer. No, all must be punished: tin-openers must be banned.
At the same time, the liberal insists that weakness is the only morally defensible position; like a silly young girl he believes that if he is loving enough, life will love him back. It is the victory of hope over experience; of utopia over reality; and rather then step up to meet the shortfall between reality and dream himself, he wants government to do it for him – and for everyone else – by giving all power to the state. He is, in short, a born peon, a slave.
The individual accepts that bad things happen and believes that it is his responsibility as a grown-up to deal with them. While he does not insist that the liberal concur with him, he also does not allow the liberal to dictate to him. To him, what the majority has been conditioned to think it wants is not of fundamental importance. Rather, if the individual does not have rights which trump those of the majority, then there are no rights at all. He believes in what America once used to represent: freedom.
America was built by the individuals; it is being co-opted by the statist liberal collectivists. All that stands between the America of the individual and a communitarian, crypto-Stalinist state with a McDonald's front end is the belief in the minds of some Americans that they can – and should – retain their arms.
If the liberals, the suborned fourth estate, and those who direct them succeed in undermining the Second Amendment, along with the rest of America’s founding principles, then the usurpation of America will be complete.
I suppose to get back on topic I will just say that all these police shootings are business as usual, but the method to finally get everyone to bend over and submit to socialism is to fuel a race war to bring about the chaos that will violenty force a change of the system in the typical leftist fashion. Now the police will rapidly militarize even more, maybe they'll get better training and deal with situations better but now everyone is riled up it's not going to stop it's going to get worse. Someone who promises free healthcare, education, housing, and all the goodies is making empty promises for votes and support, the end game is always the same: take from one group and give to another, it never has worked and won't without extreme measures by the state that makes everyones lives worse.
Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Silas Mercury wrote: And I'm fed up of gun toting americans hating the man who is trying to help them and get your country run by appropriate people like bernie not bush (you guys arent gun toting americans, that was purely for the idiots in your country, of which, no offence and i hate to say, there are a lot of)
:lol:
Gun owning Americans hating a man trying to help them, with socialism? Wow and after Comrade Sanders anti-Wall St rhetoric he comes out and supports Hillary the ultimate NEOCON and 100% Wall St backed, oh the irony. Who is appropriate is just opinion and for me Trump is the only appropriate choice even though he's too brutally honest about the issues and runs off out the mouth.
America was different
In Europe, government tyranny has broken out like a rash with unerring regularity.
In the UK, for example, you are so used to not really owning anything (you have to pay taxes on anything of value you think you own, and when you die the government taxes it all over again) and having no means of defense (if you try defending yourself against attack you are likely to go to prison) you don’t even know that it can be any other way.
But America was – and to some extent still is – different. In America the common man retains the right of the nobility in many states: he can own a gun and defend himself and his country against the government using it.
But that last vestige of freedom is being chipped away at.
The United States is already usurpacious. Americans have had almost everything taken from them. The laws on posse comitatus have been circumvented and the police has been morphed into a militarized organization which sees the population as the enemy.
Freedom of speech as a basic right – unless one is agitating for a sanctioned agenda item – is a thing of the past; banned except in so-called free-speech zones.
A full-on domestic spy agency is in place which would make the Stasi seem small-time, and torture is defended and advocated by people in senior positions.
Rather than the home of the brave and the land of the free, the US has become the place not to go on holiday if you don’t want a gruelling or groping by the TSA or a full-on beating or tasing by the steroid-head police force; the range of oppression you can face at the hands of America’s soda-guzzling, pizza-eating Blue Shirts grows daily more bizarre.
The political process is a sham and the media is weaponized, serving undeclared interests and poisoning the body politic. And the FBI will find you innocent of major crimes if you serve the system long enough for it to hand you the baton as the next President.
If this is not indicative of usurpacious government, then what is?
The one thing remaining to America from its frontiersman, self-reliant origins – the one thing standing between that diminishing portion of the US citizenry still capable of rational thought and open tyranny – is the fact that when the militarised police start shooting at the people, the people can shoot back.
Responsibility
The gun question boils down to core views on responsibility: who do you want to take responsibility for your life – you or the government?
Liberals are fundamentally collectivistic and statist. Like Stalin or Hitler, they want to legislate personal initiative and responsibility out of the equation and render all people dependent on government. They believe in collective punishment. If one man somewhere kills a cat with a tin-opener, then prosecuting that one man is not the answer. No, all must be punished: tin-openers must be banned.
At the same time, the liberal insists that weakness is the only morally defensible position; like a silly young girl he believes that if he is loving enough, life will love him back. It is the victory of hope over experience; of utopia over reality; and rather then step up to meet the shortfall between reality and dream himself, he wants government to do it for him – and for everyone else – by giving all power to the state. He is, in short, a born peon, a slave.
The individual accepts that bad things happen and believes that it is his responsibility as a grown-up to deal with them. While he does not insist that the liberal concur with him, he also does not allow the liberal to dictate to him. To him, what the majority has been conditioned to think it wants is not of fundamental importance. Rather, if the individual does not have rights which trump those of the majority, then there are no rights at all. He believes in what America once used to represent: freedom.
America was built by the individuals; it is being co-opted by the statist liberal collectivists. All that stands between the America of the individual and a communitarian, crypto-Stalinist state with a McDonald's front end is the belief in the minds of some Americans that they can – and should – retain their arms.
If the liberals, the suborned fourth estate, and those who direct them succeed in undermining the Second Amendment, along with the rest of America’s founding principles, then the usurpation of America will be complete.
I suppose to get back on topic I will just say that all these police shootings are business as usual, but the method to finally get everyone to bend over and submit to socialism is to fuel a race war to bring about the chaos that will violenty force a change of the system in the typical leftist fashion. Now the police will rapidly militarize even more, maybe they'll get better training and deal with situations better but now everyone is riled up it's not going to stop it's going to get worse. Someone who promises free healthcare, education, housing, and all the goodies is making empty promises for votes and support, the end game is always the same: take from one group and give to another, it never has worked and won't without extreme measures by the state that makes everyones lives worse.
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12 Jul 2016 13:14 #247917
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I do not live in Austin TX. I live in a small town. A tourist town, which can be scary considering most of my encounters are with transient (unknown) people, not my tax paying citizens. And yes, the McDonalds employee makes more than I do. McDonalds makes a lot more money than my city does. My city could not afford that kind of income for the staff. Just like any occupation in any city, the wages will vary greatly in different areas in the country. I am sure that LEO make a lot more money in CA ($81k in San Franxisco starting) then they do in Austin TX. Cost of living in every area, the size of the population, the amount of taxes taken from said population (the source of the income for your LEO's pay), all need to be factored in.
Qualified immunity is very real. That does not mean you cannot sue a LEO. It means that it "shield officials from harassment, distraction, and liability when they perform their duties reasonably". More specifically, "it protects government officials from lawsuits alleging that they violated plaintiffs’ rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right." "When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” courts consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights."
It is becoming harder to define these specific words: "duties reasonably", and "reasonable official". The shades of gray are becoming more blurred and there is no black or white when in any situation. Police do not have Absolute Immunity, which is a different thing, and they shouldn't. This is a balance that helps to keep people making "reasonable decisions".
Most people will sue the city/department, because let us be honest, that is where the money is. The city/department has a much bigger wallet than an individual.
Here are two articles about liability if you are still interested.
http://www.deedysupport.com/the-down-and-dirty-what-every-officer-should-know-about-insurance-and-professional-associations/
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-insurance-idUSKCN0WJ2R1
Bottom line is it is adding to the stress and concerns for Police to do the job when they have to worry that the next action they take may be perceived wrong and cause a lifetime of pain and restitution. Most LEO decisions are made in less than a second, a reaction to an ever changing situation. With training we hope that the decisions we make are the right ones, but if we instill doubt, that hesitation could be costly.
Plus these shootings do not make LEO feel safe. Now people are calling 911, and ambushing the LEO when he gets there to "help". When you approach a vehicle, alone at night, on a dark road, the windows are tinted, you cannot see who or how many people are in the vehicle, how "safe" do you think the officer feels when he approaches that vehicle?
Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
MadHatter wrote:
Karn wrote: My biggest concern is the future of law enforcement. We shed a bad light on LEO, we make them out to be the "bad guy", then who is going to want to be one? I get paid $8.60/hour as a Police Officer, that is about $56/day take home.
With the ever increasing liability law suits against officers, not departments, you have to get insurance or your personal assets can be taken away for even the most minor mistake in a "routine" traffic stop.
.
Ok you make 8.60 an hour?Are you in your first year because even then this page says that you make http://www.austintexas.gov/page/benefits-and-salary roughly 57,000 a year which in no way is 8.60 an hour.
You are at risk of being sued ? I must say I doubt that as you have qualified immunity which makes that almost impossible https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/qualified_immunity
I do not live in Austin TX. I live in a small town. A tourist town, which can be scary considering most of my encounters are with transient (unknown) people, not my tax paying citizens. And yes, the McDonalds employee makes more than I do. McDonalds makes a lot more money than my city does. My city could not afford that kind of income for the staff. Just like any occupation in any city, the wages will vary greatly in different areas in the country. I am sure that LEO make a lot more money in CA ($81k in San Franxisco starting) then they do in Austin TX. Cost of living in every area, the size of the population, the amount of taxes taken from said population (the source of the income for your LEO's pay), all need to be factored in.
Qualified immunity is very real. That does not mean you cannot sue a LEO. It means that it "shield officials from harassment, distraction, and liability when they perform their duties reasonably". More specifically, "it protects government officials from lawsuits alleging that they violated plaintiffs’ rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right." "When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” courts consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights."
It is becoming harder to define these specific words: "duties reasonably", and "reasonable official". The shades of gray are becoming more blurred and there is no black or white when in any situation. Police do not have Absolute Immunity, which is a different thing, and they shouldn't. This is a balance that helps to keep people making "reasonable decisions".
Most people will sue the city/department, because let us be honest, that is where the money is. The city/department has a much bigger wallet than an individual.
Here are two articles about liability if you are still interested.
http://www.deedysupport.com/the-down-and-dirty-what-every-officer-should-know-about-insurance-and-professional-associations/
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-insurance-idUSKCN0WJ2R1
Bottom line is it is adding to the stress and concerns for Police to do the job when they have to worry that the next action they take may be perceived wrong and cause a lifetime of pain and restitution. Most LEO decisions are made in less than a second, a reaction to an ever changing situation. With training we hope that the decisions we make are the right ones, but if we instill doubt, that hesitation could be costly.
Plus these shootings do not make LEO feel safe. Now people are calling 911, and ambushing the LEO when he gets there to "help". When you approach a vehicle, alone at night, on a dark road, the windows are tinted, you cannot see who or how many people are in the vehicle, how "safe" do you think the officer feels when he approaches that vehicle?
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12 Jul 2016 15:49 #247923
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
How can you like Donald Trump ?? He is a disgusting human being. Is he even a human being ?? The Republicans have always been considered the bad guys. You had George W. Bush, for goodness sake. GEORGE W. BUSH !!??
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12 Jul 2016 15:57 #247925
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Silas, please check your tone. This is a religious Temple, not a place to fling insults at (even famous) people.
Also please show a little respect for your fellow Jedi who may have differing political leanings to yourself - deeming some (perhaps many) here supporters/members of "the bad guys" reveals a very specific prejudice in your thinking.
Thanks.
Also please show a little respect for your fellow Jedi who may have differing political leanings to yourself - deeming some (perhaps many) here supporters/members of "the bad guys" reveals a very specific prejudice in your thinking.
Thanks.
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12 Jul 2016 16:07 - 12 Jul 2016 16:08 #247926
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Sorry tzb and anyone i offended. I'm just really upset with the current political structure that their is today, and i think it's awful that after Ronald Reagan we're letting another celebrity run for office.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 16:08 by .
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12 Jul 2016 16:27 #247927
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Regardless of their pre-political career, every president is a celebrity - the ultimate celebrity, perhaps the most famous person on the planet. Some would argue that's their major function, as a media-friendly figurehead, the public face for a party to hide behind who actually wields supreme power.
To be a celebrity just means to have achieved fame in your given field. I'm sure some celebrities would make very good presidents - even if I don't believe Trump is an example of that. Being a celebrity is unavoidable for a president, and in my opinion shouldn't exclude someone from becoming president. Perhaps it could even be viewed as an advantage that someone is already used to that level of public scrutiny and media attention.
To be a celebrity just means to have achieved fame in your given field. I'm sure some celebrities would make very good presidents - even if I don't believe Trump is an example of that. Being a celebrity is unavoidable for a president, and in my opinion shouldn't exclude someone from becoming president. Perhaps it could even be viewed as an advantage that someone is already used to that level of public scrutiny and media attention.
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12 Jul 2016 16:35 - 12 Jul 2016 16:39 #247929
by MadHatter
Ok so I was wrong about where I thought you were and worked from a faulty premise. I will offer my apologies for that and say next time I will ask those sorts of things via pm. I hope that you can understand why I did have questions though considering that BLS says that the lowest salary for police officers that they record is 30k a year ( 15 an hr roughly) and that only ten percent of cops in Texas make 15-16 an hour. But in the end I was wrong and again my apologies.
I will say that an E3 in the military makes about 11 an hour in their first two years and that is if we calculate a 40 hour 5 day work week and do not account for duty days or longer hours with no more pay. So I have been there and feel the pain. Sorry man some jobs just do not pay what they are worth.
As far as fear of lawsuits think the fact that you have qualified immunity, have police union and city lawyers, and that most people sue the city means that this fear is a tad unfounded. Its very very hard to sue a police officers and even harder to get anything from them directly. So much so that most people will never bother.
As far as feeling unsafe I can get that your job is risky and a hard one. Its understandable when there seems to be a lot of hate that people feel unsafe. However look at it from the flip side. People get killed in no knock wrong house raids and the cops are covered because they acted on good faith and the like. How safe does that make a citizen feel? A concealed carry holder was recently shot and killed after informing the officer he had a CCW and was carrying how safe does that make me feel as a CCW holder? We are always told its polite to inform a cop of the fact that we are carrying but I now see a huge shift in CCW people saying to heck with that I will not get shot for trying to be polite. So while your worry is indeed coming from a justified place please look to it from the other side as well. I will be honest I have a deep mistrust of police officers due to first hand treatment and news reports like the ones listed. But I do also pity the situations you guys are often in. I stand up for good cops where they are justified so know that even those of us with a less then favorable view of the profession know that you guys are humans and do feel for you. (Heck I got family that are retired cops, current cops, and a detective.)
Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
Replied by MadHatter on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Karn wrote:
MadHatter wrote:
Karn wrote: My biggest concern is the future of law enforcement. We shed a bad light on LEO, we make them out to be the "bad guy", then who is going to want to be one? I get paid $8.60/hour as a Police Officer, that is about $56/day take home.
With the ever increasing liability law suits against officers, not departments, you have to get insurance or your personal assets can be taken away for even the most minor mistake in a "routine" traffic stop.
.
Ok you make 8.60 an hour?Are you in your first year because even then this page says that you make http://www.austintexas.gov/page/benefits-and-salary roughly 57,000 a year which in no way is 8.60 an hour.
You are at risk of being sued ? I must say I doubt that as you have qualified immunity which makes that almost impossible https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/qualified_immunity
I do not live in Austin TX. I live in a small town. A tourist town, which can be scary considering most of my encounters are with transient (unknown) people, not my tax paying citizens. And yes, the McDonalds employee makes more than I do. McDonalds makes a lot more money than my city does. My city could not afford that kind of income for the staff. Just like any occupation in any city, the wages will vary greatly in different areas in the country. I am sure that LEO make a lot more money in CA ($81k in San Franxisco starting) then they do in Austin TX. Cost of living in every area, the size of the population, the amount of taxes taken from said population (the source of the income for your LEO's pay), all need to be factored in.
Qualified immunity is very real. That does not mean you cannot sue a LEO. It means that it "shield officials from harassment, distraction, and liability when they perform their duties reasonably". More specifically, "it protects government officials from lawsuits alleging that they violated plaintiffs’ rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right." "When determining whether or not a right was “clearly established,” courts consider whether a hypothetical reasonable official would have known that the defendant’s conduct violated the plaintiff’s rights."
It is becoming harder to define these specific words: "duties reasonably", and "reasonable official". The shades of gray are becoming more blurred and there is no black or white when in any situation. Police do not have Absolute Immunity, which is a different thing, and they shouldn't. This is a balance that helps to keep people making "reasonable decisions".
Most people will sue the city/department, because let us be honest, that is where the money is. The city/department has a much bigger wallet than an individual.
Here are two articles about liability if you are still interested.
http://www.deedysupport.com/the-down-and-dirty-what-every-officer-should-know-about-insurance-and-professional-associations/
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-insurance-idUSKCN0WJ2R1
Bottom line is it is adding to the stress and concerns for Police to do the job when they have to worry that the next action they take may be perceived wrong and cause a lifetime of pain and restitution. Most LEO decisions are made in less than a second, a reaction to an ever changing situation. With training we hope that the decisions we make are the right ones, but if we instill doubt, that hesitation could be costly.
Plus these shootings do not make LEO feel safe. Now people are calling 911, and ambushing the LEO when he gets there to "help". When you approach a vehicle, alone at night, on a dark road, the windows are tinted, you cannot see who or how many people are in the vehicle, how "safe" do you think the officer feels when he approaches that vehicle?
Ok so I was wrong about where I thought you were and worked from a faulty premise. I will offer my apologies for that and say next time I will ask those sorts of things via pm. I hope that you can understand why I did have questions though considering that BLS says that the lowest salary for police officers that they record is 30k a year ( 15 an hr roughly) and that only ten percent of cops in Texas make 15-16 an hour. But in the end I was wrong and again my apologies.
I will say that an E3 in the military makes about 11 an hour in their first two years and that is if we calculate a 40 hour 5 day work week and do not account for duty days or longer hours with no more pay. So I have been there and feel the pain. Sorry man some jobs just do not pay what they are worth.
As far as fear of lawsuits think the fact that you have qualified immunity, have police union and city lawyers, and that most people sue the city means that this fear is a tad unfounded. Its very very hard to sue a police officers and even harder to get anything from them directly. So much so that most people will never bother.
As far as feeling unsafe I can get that your job is risky and a hard one. Its understandable when there seems to be a lot of hate that people feel unsafe. However look at it from the flip side. People get killed in no knock wrong house raids and the cops are covered because they acted on good faith and the like. How safe does that make a citizen feel? A concealed carry holder was recently shot and killed after informing the officer he had a CCW and was carrying how safe does that make me feel as a CCW holder? We are always told its polite to inform a cop of the fact that we are carrying but I now see a huge shift in CCW people saying to heck with that I will not get shot for trying to be polite. So while your worry is indeed coming from a justified place please look to it from the other side as well. I will be honest I have a deep mistrust of police officers due to first hand treatment and news reports like the ones listed. But I do also pity the situations you guys are often in. I stand up for good cops where they are justified so know that even those of us with a less then favorable view of the profession know that you guys are humans and do feel for you. (Heck I got family that are retired cops, current cops, and a detective.)
Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 16:39 by MadHatter.
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12 Jul 2016 19:44 - 12 Jul 2016 19:46 #247962
by OB1Shinobi
this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense
which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Silas Mercury wrote: How can you like Donald Trump ??
this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense
which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from
People are complicated.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 19:46 by OB1Shinobi.
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12 Jul 2016 20:03 #247963
by Leah Starspectre
Perhaps a better question would be: "What about Donald Trump's proposed plans and policies do you find engaging and worthy of support? or "What about Donald Trump's platform convinces you that his leadership could help the current culture of violence grow towards better unity and cooperation?"
And I'm interested to know the answer (though if it's too far off topic, feel free to PM me)
Replied by Leah Starspectre on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
OB1Shinobi wrote:
Silas Mercury wrote: How can you like Donald Trump ??
this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense
which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from
Perhaps a better question would be: "What about Donald Trump's proposed plans and policies do you find engaging and worthy of support? or "What about Donald Trump's platform convinces you that his leadership could help the current culture of violence grow towards better unity and cooperation?"
And I'm interested to know the answer (though if it's too far off topic, feel free to PM me)
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12 Jul 2016 20:53 - 12 Jul 2016 21:54 #247969
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Replied by on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
This political candidate stuff is way off topic. Start a new thread, please.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 21:54 by .
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12 Jul 2016 21:02 - 12 Jul 2016 21:21 #247973
by OB1Shinobi
i might be wrong but it looks like you are wording your questions in a way that reflects your own personal ideas and views
simple is good when you want to understand someone else's ideas and views
ask in a way that doesnt imply there is a wrong answer or give any suggestions of a correct or "good" answer
"why do you like trump?" is fine
you could also ask "what do you like about trump?" or "why do you think trump is the best candidate?"
these are all good questions IF YOUR GOAL IS TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER PERSON
understanding others does not mean agreeing with them, it means recognizing their perceptions well enough to see how you yourself might make the same choices if you saw the world as they do
it doesnt even mean that you think that its ok to see the world as they do; you might go so far as to decide that they ought to die because of their worldview and their commitment to it
but before you can judge you have to understand, and often my experience has been that when i do take the time to really understand others, even though i disagree with them and sometimes at a fundamental level, i still dont judge them all that harshly for their views
i might talk to them harshly and i might do everything i can to counter their views, but i dont personally begrudge them for being on the other side of an ideological divide
which i think is a useful way for people to interact, and also relevant to the topic
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic About Police Shootings (in America, Duh)
Miss_Leah wrote:
OB1Shinobi wrote:
Silas Mercury wrote: How can you like Donald Trump ??
this is a very good question, and if you are able to leave out the rest of your comment, and look to those who do support trump and ask this question without interrupting them or condemning them for their views, you might actually come to an answer that makes sense
which is not to say that youll agree with them, or that you should or shouldnt agree with them, but if you ask and listen from a place of sincere desire to really just understand where they are coming from,,, you just might actually,,,understand where they are coming from
Perhaps a better question would be: "What about Donald Trump's proposed plans and policies do you find engaging and worthy of support? or "What about Donald Trump's platform convinces you that his leadership could help the current culture of violence grow towards better unity and cooperation?"
And I'm interested to know the answer (though if it's too far off topic, feel free to PM me)
i might be wrong but it looks like you are wording your questions in a way that reflects your own personal ideas and views
simple is good when you want to understand someone else's ideas and views
ask in a way that doesnt imply there is a wrong answer or give any suggestions of a correct or "good" answer
"why do you like trump?" is fine
you could also ask "what do you like about trump?" or "why do you think trump is the best candidate?"
these are all good questions IF YOUR GOAL IS TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER PERSON
understanding others does not mean agreeing with them, it means recognizing their perceptions well enough to see how you yourself might make the same choices if you saw the world as they do
it doesnt even mean that you think that its ok to see the world as they do; you might go so far as to decide that they ought to die because of their worldview and their commitment to it
but before you can judge you have to understand, and often my experience has been that when i do take the time to really understand others, even though i disagree with them and sometimes at a fundamental level, i still dont judge them all that harshly for their views
i might talk to them harshly and i might do everything i can to counter their views, but i dont personally begrudge them for being on the other side of an ideological divide
which i think is a useful way for people to interact, and also relevant to the topic
People are complicated.
Last edit: 12 Jul 2016 21:21 by OB1Shinobi.
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