Love vs Attachment

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7 years 10 months ago #242813 by Leah Starspectre
Replied by Leah Starspectre on topic Love vs Attachment

Gisteron wrote: Anything and everything can - and indeed does - lead to suffering of one sort or another, all of the time, to somebody somewhere. Of course that doesn't mean that everything should be permitted unrestrictedly or prohibited pending specific circumstance, or if it does I wouldn't be willing to make that call myself. Morality is at any rate more complicated than that. It isn't and nor should we pretend like it is about binary states like that of joy as opposed to suffering or the do against the don't. There is nothing inherently wrong with reducing complex matters to simple patterns, but one can never do that without losing nuance that is often inexpendable and that is the single most devastating flaw of every moral framework, no matter how sophisticated the authors at times think theirs is - the pretence to answer genuinely complex issues with childishly simplistic solutions.


Of course it's simplistic in the way I presented it. Sometimes, it's useful to break down complex matters to simple denominations in order to absorb them more easily - complexity and nuance can be added with time, instruction and deeper understanding. You wouldn't expect a baby's first word to be "Floccinaucinihilipilification", would you? ;)

Also, I didn't suggest that anything should be unrestrained or restricted. I'm wondering what place love and attachment have in the Jedi community, because surely there must be many different ways of looking at it, and that's where I think deeper understanding comes from: considering the shades of grey between the two extremes and from other people's wisdom and experience as well as from codified morals (which is often simply ancient wisdom).
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7 years 10 months ago #242819 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Love vs Attachment
Love, for me, is to appreciate something(or someone) for what it is. In the case of life, it should be nurtured and allowed to grow.

Attachment is a liar. It tells you something in your mind that is often quite different from what is happening.

The Jedi path is a very personal one. I cannot speak to what would be best for the community.

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7 years 10 months ago #243066 by RyuJin
Replied by RyuJin on topic Love vs Attachment
the 4 loves...

storge: loving attachement, deep friendship, or nonsexual affection. the emotion that binds friends and parents and children.

agape: generosity and charity. implying the wish to share one's bounty and is epitomized by anonymous donations. in relationships it is characterized by selfless giving.

philia: friendship. it is based on liking and respect rather than sexual desire and involves a desire to do and enjoy things with the other person and to see them when lonely or bored.

eros: passion. sudden passionate desire that can be so gripping that one can be convinced that their life has been changed forever. it can be earthy and sexy with sexual arousal and desire being the strongest components of romantic or passionate love. it begins with a powerful physical attraction or feelings of passion and is associated with strong physiological arousal...

per human sexuality in a world of diversity 5th edition


of the four loves, eros and storge are the most likely to lead to attachment...of the four i only have significant experience in 2...agape and philia...i have no attachment to my own family, likely because of my abusive childhood for my own emotional survival those sort of bonds had to be severed. if you live long enough without forming attachments letting go becomes second nature. it is not something everyone can nor should do...i will do anything in my power to aid and protect those i let into my circle of friendship (agape and philia), and when the time comes to part ways and move on there is no attachment to cause pain or suffering...

in modern times we use the word "love" to cover a wide array of emotional/psychological attachments and connections...it has become a "blanket term" rather than a specific one...perhaps we need to go back to using specific terms...

Warning: Spoiler!

Quotes:
Warning: Spoiler!

J.L.Lawson,Master Knight, M.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)
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7 years 10 months ago #243069 by
Replied by on topic Love vs Attachment
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RyuJin wrote: the 4 loves...

storge: loving attachement, deep friendship, or nonsexual affection. the emotion that binds friends and parents and children.

agape: generosity and charity. implying the wish to share one's bounty and is epitomized by anonymous donations. in relationships it is characterized by selfless giving.

philia: friendship. it is based on liking and respect rather than sexual desire and involves a desire to do and enjoy things with the other person and to see them when lonely or bored.

eros: passion. sudden passionate desire that can be so gripping that one can be convinced that their life has been changed forever. it can be earthy and sexy with sexual arousal and desire being the strongest components of romantic or passionate love. it begins with a powerful physical attraction or feelings of passion and is associated with strong physiological arousal...

per human sexuality in a world of diversity 5th edition


of the four loves, eros and storge are the most likely to lead to attachment...of the four i only have significant experience in 2...agape and philia...i have no attachment to my own family, likely because of my abusive childhood for my own emotional survival those sort of bonds had to be severed. if you live long enough without forming attachments letting go becomes second nature. it is not something everyone can nor should do...i will do anything in my power to aid and protect those i let into my circle of friendship (agape and philia), and when the time comes to part ways and move on there is no attachment to cause pain or suffering...

in modern times we use the word "love" to cover a wide array of emotional/psychological attachments and connections...it has become a "blanket term" rather than a specific one...perhaps we need to go back to using specific terms...

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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #243599 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Love vs Attachment

Miss_Leah wrote: a lot of the Jedi that I have encountered on this forum do subscribe to the idea of minimizing attachment to free the self from unnecessary physical and emotional burdens. It's a very Buddhist notion of attachment leading to suffering.

But then there's Love as Campbell describes it: your other self, a union or two parts that were once whole. Is that not the ultimate attachment? The ultimate suffering - both of yourself and the other?

What place do you think Love/Amor has in the Jedi community?


last semester one of my professors introduced the triangular theory of love, which i found interesting

i'll put it in a spoiler and you can check it out if youre interested

https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/the-triangular-theory-of-love/

Warning: Spoiler!


this site lists several popular love theories

https://www.verywell.com/theories-of-love-2795341

from my experience i can say that without having a life of ones own, it is not possible to be a healthy partner

its easy for people to lose themselves in the relationship

and if the relationship itself is the most important thing in your life, youve set yourself up to fail, as a person and as a partner

about community: i dont want to be a part of a community that excludes LOVE from its premise

i wouldnt say that totjo does excludes love, even if some member or other might give that impression, because no community is really defined by only one or two people

love builds a community in a way that benefits everyone, and i say this aware of my own shortcomings

generally i think that you have to be a healthy person in order to love in a healthy way

but i also think that striving to love in a healthy way can help to make you a healthier person

attachment becomes unhealthy when it makes demands, which is different from having standards

i have the right to say "these are the standard by which i expect to be treated"

it is not anyone elses responsibility to live up to my standards

its my responsibility to pay attention to them, and see how they treat people, and see how they treat me, and decide if that is the kind of treatment that i want

if its not, then it is my responsibility to move along

having my own life helps me to be able to do that, and i recommend the same for everyone

you have to HAVE a life you can SHARE your life, and if youre holding on to someone who is damaging you, or someone who you are damaging, then its not healthy and its time to let go

but thats easier said than done

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 10 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #243605 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Love vs Attachment
i feel that associating love with some illness is a disservice to people, which is unfortunate in this case because the post to which i refer was otherwise excellent

i mean it was one of the best posts in the thread, was really great to read except for that one, imo very important detail

in another thread there are people discussing how wise and insightful chomsky is

well, chomsky is a linguist and his breakout work iirc and much of what he has said since, basically have to do with the way that language is used to direct thought

if we want to say that being in love is like having a cold, or cough, or in some way being ILL, then where does that line of thought direct us?

to perhaps saying that marriage is like chronic bronchitis?

then is having a family something like emphysema?

and a career to support that family something akin to long term hospitalization?

these are LITERALLY the foundations of society, and love is possibly the most important component of human relationships - its said that from love, every other worthy thing springs

the western world has declared love as probably the ultimate human virtue, and i dont say that this is correct but i cant really say its wrong either

and its an insidious idea to parcel out, because it is easy to view it as a casual and offhand remark, but its a remark that will stick to the mind, and come back at the worst possible time

when life is good and everything is roses then of course "love as an illness" seems quaint and clever and harmless, but when youre really heartbroken and suffering, "love as an illness" makes perfect sense, and becomes almost self evident

and if we accept that the ultimate virtue of our entire civilization is in fact a form of illness, where does THAT direct us?

not to any place that is good for any one of us

like i said, the rest of the post was fantastic, and i have been sitting on this for a while because i dont want to seem hostile, and i dont think the post was meant to be the way that i have described here

and im sure some are going to feel i am being too serious

but if nothing else it is a great opportunity to highlight how we might be conscious of the way we use language, and i think that is good for everyone

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 10 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

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7 years 10 months ago #244284 by Albali Cometlast
Replied by Albali Cometlast on topic Love vs Attachment
In the SW movies Anakin once said Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion which i will define as unconditional love is central to a Jedi life. So we are encourage to Love

Based on this the jedi shouldnt have attachment but i considered that this rule have its exceptions and give unconditional love to one person you should be really close and have a type of relationship with some "attachment" (live together, travel together, experience new things together) but the mistake is to consider that somehow because of love you own that person. That is how i understand the forbidden of attachment for a Jedi, a mistake a Jedi shouldnt make.

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7 years 10 months ago #244337 by Wescli Wardest
Replied by Wescli Wardest on topic Love vs Attachment
Love verses attachment…

“Only choices made in love are compassionate. There are no exceptions. Do you have the courage to act with an empowered heart without attachment to the outcome? If not, you have no ability to give or experience compassion. That is the shocking truth.” ~Gary Zukav


Love is an emotion and attachment is an expectation that elicits an emotional response.

“He who is overly attached to his family members experiences fear and sorrow, for the root of all grief is attachment. Thus one should discard attachment to be happy.” ~Chanakya


Would have to disagree that attachment is the root of all suffering. I believe that fear is the greatest negative motivator which can lead to or cause our suffering. And attachment leads to fear. There are negative motivators that are a part of life and we would lose perspective of the fragile and special meaning of positive motivators without them.

“Pray to God that your attachment to such transitory things as wealth, name, and creature comforts may become less and less every day.” ~Ramakrishna

“Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be attained only by someone who is detached.” ~Simone Weil


The material world plays to our need for acceptance and our attachment to it. This is a condition which in part has led to our enslavement to the world of today. And so many have mistaken love for attachment and can no longer see the difference.

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7 years 10 months ago #244344 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Love vs Attachment
My choice of love can fully self support itself. Please do not think I am saying this to poke or make fun of others but sometimes our love needs changing. I am a individual who re wrote and quite literally completely re wrote himself. It is possible. Worth the time to learn and execute. So any times we let love tell us what to do... and that's cool but it's not the love WE want, it's that crazy cousin no one tells anything cuz he's spoiled and dare u to do stupid things. I stopped hanging out with that guy along time ago.
Has any one else made changes to their own life's as they have learned? Out of curiosity, how?
I got stories for days lol I like to hear others

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Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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7 years 10 months ago #244356 by
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I love humanity, but I hate humans

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